Mansfield Lift and Zercher Deadlift

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Steve Freides 2 weeks, 3 days ago.

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  • #28973

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    The rules for the Mansfield lift make it a straight-legged, 12″ stance Zercher Deadlift. I don’t see the Zercher Deadlift in either our rulebook or the IAWA’s. I do find what I call the Zercher Squat, which is the Zercher Lift in the USAWA.

    Would the USAWA and/or IAWA consider adding the Zercher Deadlift? It’s a great lift but safer for the lower back and many more people could attempt it.

    I’d like to make an official request that it be included. It would essentially be the Mansfield lift, minus the 12″ between the heels and locked knees requirement. The proposed rules for this lift are below. (I started with the rules for the Mansfield lift and removed portions.)

    Thanks very much.

    Proposed: Zercher Deadlift Lift

    The bar is placed on the platform in front of the lifter and the lift begins at the lifter’s discretion.

    The feet must not move during the lift.

    The lifter bends forward to a position where the bar may be placed into the crooks of the elbows with arms bent. The bar must be placed fully into the crooks of the elbows, and rolling the bar up the forearms into position is not allowed.

    Once the bar is fixed in the crooks of the elbows, the lifter then rises to a position in which the torso is erect and the shoulders upright. Once the bar is motionless, an official will give a command to lower the bar, and the lift ends when the bar is returned to the platform under control by the lifter.

  • #28974

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    Steve, You’ve just described the Scott Lift – Which IS an official USAWA lift!!! It’s just very seldom done. Al

  • #28976

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Al, thank you for your prompt reply.

    The Scott Lift starts on the knees. (And good to know about this – I will soon take the written official’s exam and I had no clue …)

    I’m proposing a Zercher Deadlift, which starts on the feet. Here is a 1-minute video of me from 2014 doing this lift w/ 175 and then 200 lbs.

    -S-

  • #28978

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    You are correct on that! The Scott Lift does start on the knees, but the few times I’ve seen it done is the first thing lifters do is get their feet under them before lifting the bar.

    Your technique looks great in the video!

  • #28979

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Thank you for the kind words, Al. I’m pretty that, around this time, James Fuller and I were both shooting videos of this lift.

    I watched the Chad Ulom (sp?) video – it’s a different enough lift, IMHO.

    What would I have to do to officially petition to have this added to our organization and also the IAWA?

    Thanks again.

    -S-

  • #28980

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    Yes – Chad did the Scott lift in a very strange way. That video I took of him was his very first time doing the lift and he had no idea how best to do it! Probably not the best technique for the Scott lift.

    I will do a blog tomorrow explaining the rules of lift approval.

  • #28982

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Al, just read your blog about how to submit a new lift. I think my proposed rules above are OK to submit – how does one do this? Email, regular mail, and either way, to what address, please?

    New USAWA lifts may be added to the current list of approved lifts by submitting a description of the lift and rules of the lift to the executive board for review 30 days prior to the Annual National Meeting.

    Thanks very much. I’d like to submit this now – don’t know when the Annual National Meeting is.

    -S-

  • #28983

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    Just a few things that I would clarify on your rules:
    State the bar may not be rested on the body or people will just Zercher it.
    state heels and toes may rise during lift, but feet must not move (like the deadlift)

    The EB may give you more feedback/or request additional rules before voting. The process is started once you email this to the USAWA secretary (me). I send it on to the rest of the EB. Al

  • #28984

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Al, thanks again for your prompt reply.

    I would … state the bar may not be rested on the body or people will just Zercher it.

    This confuses me – I think everyone rests the bar on their body at the top of a Zercher SQ, the existing AWA lift. If you look at my vidoe above, I think you’ll see my upper arm remains more or less vertical throughout the lift, so it’s on my body at the top.

    I went looking for a Zercher SQ video and found this:

    and I think it shows the same thing. It would make the lift harder, IMHO, to get your elbows around the bar and then pull it to your chest before standing up. But if someone wants to do that, I wouldn’t have a problem with it for this new lift I’m calling the Zercher DL.

    It would be good to have James Fuller’s input – he has performed this lift, I remember, because we were both sharing videos of it back in 2014.

    I _think_ what you’re talking about is someone having the flexibility to get into a deep squat and still get their elbows under the bar and then stand up from there. I believe James has done it that way, but if my memory is correct, the first thing that happens with a heavy weight is that the hips come up and the arm angle opens because it’s harder – maybe impossible – to stand up from the deep squat _without_ the arm angle opening up. I cannot do what James does (in this regard and many others!) so if there’s a way to get his attention here, that would be great.

    Thank you again for the conversation.

    -S-

  • #28985

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    My point of “resting on the body” was meant that some lifters would iniate the lift from the floor to the knees (with hips high), then sit the bar on the legs and reposition to perform the finish of a Zercher Lift. From your video, it doesn’t seem that this is how you intended the lift to be performed.

  • #28986

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Duly noted, sir. I’ll adjust my proposed rules shortly and repost.

    Thank you again.

    -S-

  • #28989

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    New text in italics (if I did it right) and copied from the USAWA manual for the regular deadlift.

    Proposed: Zercher Deadlift Lift

    The bar is placed on the platform in front of the lifter and the lift begins at the lifter’s discretion.

    The feet must not move during the lift.

    The lifter bends forward to a position where the bar may be placed into the crooks of the elbows with arms bent. The bar must be placed fully into the crooks of the elbows, and rolling the bar up the forearms into position is not allowed.

    Once the bar is fixed in the crooks of the elbows, the lifter then rises to a position in which the torso is erect and the shoulders upright. The bar may be uneven during the ascent, but it must finish evenly. The bar may touch the legs during the ascent, but must not be rested on the legs, bounced, hitched, or lowered.

    Once the bar is motionless, an official will give a command to lower the bar, and the lift ends when the bar is returned to the platform under control by the lifter.

  • #29004

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    Steve, That looks good. The next step is to email me this proposal (amyers@usawa.com) with your written rule and maybe a short paragraph explaining why you want to propose this lift. I will forward it to the EB for discussion first, then once discussion has ended, a vote will be taken to determine whether it should be presented to the membership for a vote (the final step in making a lift official). Not all EB members follow this forum so it needs to be done this way. Thanks! Al

  • #29008

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Al, thank you yet again.

    I never can get your email right – would you be kind enough to email me?

    steve.freides@gmail.com

    I’ll reply to that with the official lift proposal.

    Thanks again.

    -S-

  • #29009

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Oops, never mind, I see your email. I’ll try it and see if it goes through for me.

    I’ve been spelling your last name Meyers – that’s the problem.

    Thanks.

    -S-

  • #29011

    Al Myers
    Keymaster

    haha I’ve had my last spelled wrong many times! I got your email and it has been submitted to the EB. Sometimes these take a while to get all the votes in, as some of the EB members will want to test out the proposed lift before commenting or voting. Al

  • #29017

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    Al, I didn’t do this because I didn’t know if it was OK, but it would be great if the members of the board could also have a link to the video of me performing the proposed lift. (Or just a link to this thread here.)

    -S-

  • #29102

    61pwcc
    Participant

  • #29103

    61pwcc
    Participant

  • #29104

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    @61pwcc, thank you. That is what Al mentioned as one option until I added the wording that would not allow that.

    Here I am today doing my proposed lift at just over body weight for a triple:

    My best is 200 lbs – hoping to better than over the next few weeks or months.

    -S-

  • #29105

    Steve Freides
    Participant

    bw was 154 this morning. That’s a rubber 25, and regular 25, and a 5 on each side.

    -S-

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