USAWA's Democracy

[dwagman]

In the Clark Lift thread, Thom made a comment about voting and showing up at the national meet to do so. This begs the following questions…

1. Why doesn’t USAWA have a process that allows all members to vote instead of just those who have the time, money, etc., to show up wherever the national meet might be held?

2. How democratic is it, when only a select few who can show up at some singular place in the nation are afforded an opportunity to vote?

It would be sooooo easy to allow all members who want to vote to do so via their usawa.com accounts or via mail-in and to then at the national meet announce the results. As to the arguments against/for any particular item(s) that occur at nationals, they can be started on this Forum.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Ben Edwards]

Dan, you make some great points!

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." -Mike Tyson

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I have considered this before. On the other hand, if a member deems it important to have their say in matters, maybe making the national meeting should be a priority. I will say I have missed nationals before due to time and/or money. You could compare this to poll taxes when it comes to a true democracy. Keep the poor away by making it expensive. I certainly know that is not the intent. I am sure this was put into place long before we had the means by which to hash out things via internet without all meeting face to face. However, something that might need to be revisited sometime in the future.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Dan,
I’m certainly not disagreeing with you here as in the perfect World everyone would get to have “their say”. For certain issues in the past (like the kneesleeve proposal) we have done a complete membership poll to get a true feeling amongst the entire membership. With much prodding we got about a 50 percent reply rate on that.

Every year I promote the yearly USAWA awards which is selected by full membership vote. This is declared on the website and ANYONE who is a member of the USAWA gets to vote on this. However EVERY YEAR I get only about 20 response rate (and these are the same people every year who vote) on this. Half this crowd is always at Nationals to vote at the National meeting. That’s only 20 percent of the entire membership who cares to really vote on something that’s as easy as taking 5 minutes to come up with their choices to send to me via email. No expense required. At our National meeting about 20 members are present to vote on issues (Again 20 percent) out of our annual membership of around 100 members.

My point is that it would really be a big waste of my time to take polls on every issue to vote on as only a handful of people would actually vote. Truthfully I doubt it would be as many people as show up to Nationals to vote!!! As several members who vote at Nationals don’t participate in this forum. Al

[Thom Van Vleck]

So is the USAWA more of a Republic than a democracy? HAHAHAHA

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

Mr. Nice Guy, haha …. maybe…..yeah probably

But then again most people don’t know there is a difference now a days!

[dwagman]

Al, I’m not sure I understand…do you mean now a days people don’t know the difference between a guy or being nice? hihihi

As to democracy and making it easier for people to vote, I don’t see how past participation numbers should be in the way of making things better and easier. Only when participation in the democratic process is accessible to everybody in USAWA can we actually call it a democratic organization. As it stands, it is completely unreasonable to expect a person to travel half way across the country to vote on the issue he/she is passionate about, or even all of the matters presented. ET is right, it is in a way like a poll tax.

Besides, it would be so incredibly easy to make voting accessible online.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by dwagman.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan,
I will bring this up at the meeting (doing polls as a way to evaluate more members viewpoints). I know it would be pretty easy to do online polls. And even though at first if it’s not for actual votes on issues, having this statistic would influence the way the membership would vote at the meeting.

However, as I said earlier I would be surprised if 20 percent of the membership would take the time to respond to these online polls. I may be wrong though. Maybe we could bet a beer on it??? I could use another good German Beer from you. haha Al

[dwagman]

Oh, sure, bring beer into this discussion. I consider this an underhanded ploy to distract me from the topic at hand. 🙂

Al, I’m not sure you quite understand my proposed process. I’m not talking about polling the membership, rather online voting. The way I would see this transpire is to have all matters to be voted on made public on the blog in advance of the national meeting, then the matters can be discussed via the Forum to whatever extent the membership sees fit, and the final step would be to have a ballot available online for the membership to vote with and available in hard copy for those who’d want to mail it in. The ballots would then be counted at the national meeting along with in-person votes at that time.

Also, I wouldn’t at all disagree with your assessment of how much participation this would actually result in. I would argue, however, that anticipated and/or actual rates of participation in the democratic process should not to any degree interfere with the process of true democracy.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Just a little followup on this topic –
I visited with several lifters at Nationals (who are always at the Annual National Meeting) on this topic of online voting on issues (not polling).
Everyone I visited with was against it so it was not brought up at the meeting.
As one lifter told me, “I spent hundreds of dollars to travel here just because I wanted to represent at Nationals and let my clubs voice be known at the meeting. If others cared enough they would be here as well”.
The method of voting in the USAWA is a bylaw rule, and to change the bylaws it requires a 2/3 rd vote at the annual meeting. I don’t see this ever happening.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

There you go. I certainly understand where they are coming from.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

Al, congrats on winning nationals!

Thanks for taking an informal poll on this issue; that was a nice thing for you to do. But I have to admit that I don’t share ET’s understanding for what you learned.

Of course the method by which this was done is highly limited, meaning that the findings should not be considered representative of the USAWA membership. As to that one lifter you quoted, I think it’s utterly preposterous what he/she stated; it’s selfish, ignorant, and utterly undemocratic.

You’re absolutely right regarding this being a bylaw issue and what’s required to change it. Of course when USAWA was created there was no Internet, so the current approach made sense at the time. But just because USAWA is about testing strength in old-time lifts, that doesn’t mean it has to be governed today by 19th century technology and mindsets.

Of course USAWA isn’t the U.S., but when one throws around the term “democracy” as it relates to our great nation and then applies it to USAWA, as many have, then I would argue that we should also consider that our Founding Fathers were among the most progressive people on the planet at that time. If those great minds were alive today, they’d be thinking about but one thing — how can we make things better and how can we govern in a more enlightened way? It would be so nice if USAWA could step up to the plate and propel this, the greatest of all strength sports, to the top by taking advantage of everything technology provides in terms of not only “getting the word out” but particularly when it comes to the “democracy” of our organization.

With that…happy 4th y’all!

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan,

I certainly understand your feelings on this matter, and I KNOW you are one who would represent a vote if it was done online. I appreciate you caring enough about the USAWA to want a say/vote on matters. Not everyone in the organization is like this. Every year there are several lifters who attend Nationals but miss the meeting for one reason or another. They are there but the meeting is not what they came for.

Online voting for ALL ISSUES is a difficult proposal. At the meeting we follow (at least try to) proper parlimentary procedure according to Roberts Rules of Order. This allows amendments, etc to made which would be difficult to follow with anything online. That’s why I think polling on issues is a better initial plan than actual votes as the motion may end up different at the live meeting than online motion. Certain issues (like new lift proposals which can’t be ammended at the meeting) lend better to taking a vote beforehand in addition to the meeting vote. This could be extended to election of officers as well.

In most all democracys (including our great Nation) a selected few (our representives) make the laws for the country. Individuals may elect these representatives, but individuals don’t have a direct vote on many issues. I don’t see the USAWA as being any different here, as a select few show up at the meeting to vote to hopefully represent the views of many. So I do disagree with you there, as I feel the USAWA operates in a democratic manner.

But then again, I’ve been told before that the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.

[dwagman]

Al, as you may or may not know, I sat on the USPF EC and was deeply involved in the organization. In fact, in light of all the wrongdoing (e.g., violations of bylaws and federal law) I was one of the main individuals involved in getting them kicked out of the IPF. After that I sat on the USAPL EC and was equally involved. So you’re right, I would most certainly cast a vote for USAWA matters if I was presented with an easy way to do so. But I’m not going to spend ~1k in travel and board…I don’t even do that anymore for purposes of competing.

There is, however, a major difference between the two: lifting is done for personal reasons, being able to cast a vote for the organization benefits the entire membership and the organization. My whole point is that voting shouldn’t be as difficult as it currently is.

I do see your point regarding voting on all issues. That, I contend, would also require an amendment to the bylaws so that the Forum would be able to serve as a sounding block and matters adjusted/refined that way before they go before a vote. I think this would be relatively easy to do, but would require the sort of progressiveness that, I’m sorry to say, I don’t see in USAWA. Besides, let’s be honest about this, there’s little to nothing being done to advance knowledge about all-round lifting. So within the context of priorities, this discussion about USAWA and democracy is probably secondary to growing the sport, making it more competitive, etc.

Please allow me to address your analogy between our nation and USAWA. Indeed, as citizens of the U.S. we elect representatives who then craft and vote on legislation; this, however, is not analogous to USAWA. Our membership doesn’t elect representatives who are the ones developing and voting upon issues, it’s the membership that does so. So it’s important to understand the distinction; our nation is a republic, i.e., a representative democracy whereas our organization is a pure democracy. But a pure democracy can only work when all of the “members” are afforded an opportunity to easily participate in the process. As it stands, USAWA makes it prohibitively difficult for members to participate in organizational matters—i.e., vote—thereby placing it’s intended form of democracy in to question.

Regarding your point of a benevolent dictatorship, doesn’t that depend on the working definition of benevolence and dictatorship? Couldn’t I also argue that they’re mutually exclusive? I think that our Founding Fathers had it right, in particular one of them— Thomas Jefferson. He expressed his view regarding human life—and how to govern—this way:

“Reason must be our only oracle.”

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Good points Dan, and I know our system of “government” in the USAWA is far from perfect.

But I would still argue that having voting online would hinder more members from voting than acually showing up at a yearly meeting somewhere. How many who was at the meeting is reading this??? Denny I know. Frank maybe. But I doubt anyone else is!!!! If you are reading this and was at the meeting please post to prove me wrong.

It’s interesting how the term “poll tax” was thrown around in this discussion as if the USAWA is intentionally trying to make it difficult for members to participate in voting matters. That’s EXACTLY how it would be if we went to online meeting and voting. A good portion of the USAWA membership doesn’t even own a computer!!!

One positive thing is that every year the Nationals is rotated to different areas of the country. This allows a different segment of the membership to participate in the AGM every year.

[RJ]

This subject is a rude awakening.

Since USAWA designates an elite few who think for me, there is no reason for my further input.

[dwagman]

Al, this is about doing justice to calling our organization a democracy, as so many members have in the past. At the foundation of a democracy is the ability to easily participate in the democratic process. Whether the membership participates or not is up to them. Besides, what’s the acceptable participation rate to base an improvement in voting accessibility on? And who makes that determination and based on what?

I would also argue that basing an organization’s governing structure on assumptions isn’t an appropriate approach–governing should only be based on sound methods of democracy. Besides, Al, how can you conclude anything about participation in a program that doesn’t even exist?

I might add that there was no time in which I suggested that the current approach was designed to purposely limit voting participation. But since we agree that the current system does in fact make voting very difficult and limiting via extensive travel to different parts of the country, why not try to improve it? Besides, I also didn’t state that voting should only occur Online, it would be in addition to the current system. So owning a computer or not wouldn’t be a factor, though for those who don’t, there’s always the public library.

Bottom line, making voting and participation easier for the membership is a winning proposition and elevates the organization to a higher standard of functioning. This would benefit it in innumerable ways.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Though I brought up “poll tax”, I never meant it to indicate that the USAWA was intentionally trying to keep people from voting. I understand that the method was in place far before there were other methods by which we could vote. I also understand that there are particular bylaws that would have to be ammended through the appropriate channels in order for this to change. So, for the time being, we either leave it as it is, or get it added to the agenda at the next national meeting and talk to members to get the appropriate amount of support to get it passed at the national meeting. I am not opposed to this notion, but at the same time I am not sure I want to spend the time sending out letters or knocking on doors to get that support, and I certainly do not feel comfortable asking someone else to do it. I will say that there has not been any time that I felt like my voice was not important in the USAWA, though I have only made a handful of national meetings. And by handful, I think the number stands at 3.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Good discussion!!!! And again, I want to really thank those who are participating in this thread.

First Dan – Your points are well stated. I absolutely agree that anything that could be done to increase the ease of members participation in “voting matters” should be done. But as I stated earlier, there are logistic problems with conducting dual online meetings with a live meeting. But there are some voting matters (like new lift proposals, elections) that could easily be done online in addition to live voting. But I will stand by the point I made (and I don’t consider it an assumption) that online voting will be poorly represented. I don’t consider it an assumption as I’ve been doing the Yearly Awards for close to 8 years now and it’s all done online, and I’m always disappointed in the number that participate. How would voting be any different?

ET – Bylaws can be changed. All it takes is convincing a few people, who will convince others, that we want a change. The first step is to talk to all the members of the Executive Board.

And RJ – Your input is ALWAYS valued, after all, you’re a Dino Gym member now!!!!!

[Al Myers]

One more thing.
Alot of this has been the result of me not doing my job as Secretary/Webmaster by not properly informing the membership of the proposed new rules and lifts on the website ahead of the AGM. All of the new proposed lifts/rule changes should have been detailed way in front of the meeting on the website to give time for discussion in the forum. The lack of this disclosure makes it appear as if the USAWA is trying to do things “behind closed doors”. I apologize for this, and hopefully will do a better job in the future.

[dwagman]

Al, I feel as though I owe you an apology for starting this thread…

My previous post was submitted yesterday prior to training. Throughout my training I had a chance to think about all of this a bit more. It came to mind that perhaps Al isn’t arguing against progressive steps for the organization based on reason—after all there’s no rational argument to be had against making voting easier in a democratic organization—but rather based on one simple fact: Al’s the only one who contributes to the organization in a consistent and in-depth manner.

How much more is this one person supposed to take on?

How much more can this one person take on?

The truth is that even if the majority of members would be for increasing the ease by which one can vote, who’s gonna get it done? AL! So I have to admit that now I almost regret bringing this up.

Since ET brought up his reluctance to “knock on doors,” I’ll be unavailable, too. I’m in the process of going off-the-grid (OTG), both in person and lifestyle. I’m going to leave the world and its general lack of enlightenment in my shadow. Since applying the latest scientific findings to my training is my life’s passion—and the sole reason for my continued athletic success—I’ll emerge from time to time to break open records, but that’s it.

And for those who might now wonder why I’m going OTG, the reasons are many with some perhaps most eloquently expressed by Charles F. Lumis in A Tramp Across the Continent, published in 1892:

…railroads and Pullmans were invented to help us hurry through life and miss most of the pleasure of it—and most of the profit, too, except of that jingling, only half-satisfying sort which can be footed up in the ledger. I was after neither time nor money, but life—not life in the pathetic meaning of the poor health-seeker, for I was perfectly well and a trained athlete; but life in the truer, broader, sweeter sense, the exhilirant [sic] joy of living outside the sorry fences of society, living with a perfect body and a wakened mind, a life where brain and brawn and leg and lung all rejoice and grow alert together.

And with that I might as well bid y’all right now…adieu.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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