Denny and Doping

[RJ]

Denny and Doping

[Tom Ryan]

Thanks for posting this, Ruth. I had read about Ramos testing positive on another forum, but I didn’t know all of the details.

[Denny Habecker]

Ruth,
I don’t go on facebook at all right now because every time I log on to facebook my computer locks up on me. [ I know,Al, I need a new computer.] It doesn’t suprise me about Ramos. I always wondered how he could stay that strong and look the musculer at his age.

[dwagman]

I have mixed feelings about this and am curious what you guys think.

For one, I fail to see how his HRT (hormone replacement therapy) is any different than what a post-menopausal woman would do. The difference is, however, that too much of it for a guy will cause a positive in doping…but not for a woman even though the general effects for the old person are similar regardless of gender.

Also to consider is that a certain higher level of testosterone (T) is permissible under doping control rules. In other words, if you take extra T, but keep it under that level, then even though you’re technically doping, you’re not cheating under the rules of the sport. Of course since T levels fluctuate greatly depending on any number of variables, including how you train and how you manipulate training-specific variables, it’s extremely difficult to predict what, precisely, that level will be, say, the morning of competition, during competition, or when you have to pee in a cup after competition. And that’s why he got busted.

Finally, isn’t this testament that doping control works and that no harm was done?

I guess part of me has a hard time faulting a guy for wanting to remain as manly and strong as possible in old age, and in this pursuit he engages in HRT. Indeed, some sports organizations make allowances for HRT. But we have older competitors in USAWA and IAWA who have not failed doping control and who have not dabbled in HRT, even though they want to be lifting to the end and even though they want to be as strong as possible. I’d like to hear from you guys what your thoughts are about Ramos, his rationale for using, and why you decided not to engage in HRT. Also, if HRT remains below the banned level, do you guys still consider it cheating?

Personally, I’m not sure what I might do 20 years down the road. I mean, when you’re 20, do you have any concept of what you might think or do when you’re 40? And when you’re 40, you have any concept about what you might think or do when you’re 60…etc.? Still, what about some of you younger guys. What are your thoughts on this?

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

start HRT, I will: stop competing in drug tested meets
do so to feel better NOT to lift more
will not try to HIDE that I am doing HRT

[61pwcc]

“Finally, isn’t this testament that doping control works and that no harm was done?”- Dan Wagman
Dan, please tell me that you honestly don’t feel this way. How ’bout the guys who SHOULD HAVE the awards/accolades that this guy instead cheated and received.
Recently, in Muscular Development magazine, Shawn Ray, Flex Wheeler,and Kevin Levrone were asked about memories that stood out about their Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic win(s). Most disturbing was Shawn Ray’s recounting of his failing the drug test in 90′ resulting in forfeiture of his first place trophy and cash prize. What burned me was his comments basically stating that,”yeah, I got caught but hey I still got to have dinner with Arnold!” At that time, the winner of the Arnold was treated to dinner with the MAN himself. That honor SHOULD HAVE gone to Mike Ashley….the rightful winner. It wasn’t enough to forgo the trophy and the cash, Shawn STOLE that opportunity from Mike Ashley. How many opportunities has this man stolen from his fellow athletes?!?! He FULL well knew what he was doing and was OK to cheat for the past 20+ years!! No harm done??

[61pwcc]

this jackass Don Ramos has just set Masters Athletics back how many years? How many Masters competitor’s results are now going to be viewed with a bit of undeserving skepticism? His actions reach FAR beyond his own self. Again I say,”No harm done?”

[Anonymous]

I personally don’t have a problem with it. I completely understand how the man feels, and he at least seemed honest about what he was doing.

Jesse

[dwagman]

Jim, if you don’t mind, I’d like to keep this in the realm of weightlifting and with Ramos instead of bodybuilding.

So let me clarify a bit what I mean with no harm was done.

First, I suppose that’s not quite correct. The harm that was done was to Ramos himself, his reputation, his motivation, his records, etc. And along those lines, and perhaps I’m actually being agist here, I don’t think that holding a senior citizen amateur athlete to the same “doping” standards as others is appropriate; after all, there is a difference between doping and HRT.

If I read between your lines accurately, you would seem to suggest, however, that any form of exogenous AAS use is doping, damaging to the sport, cheating, damaging to other athletes, etc. But how can this be if the substance can’t even be detected, as it was in Ramos’ case for 20 years? Consider that the testing methodologies employed can detect one part per billion. That’s the equivalent to a pile of $10 million dollars in pennies, and able to pick out that one bad penny. So not even that much was in his system. Or in the case of T, whatever was found was found to be well within the normal range. Or perhaps he went off several weeks before a meet in order to pee clean, and did. With all of that in mind, can one still consider what he did doping? Moreover, what sort of ergonenic benefits could he possibly have derived from that level or approach of use?

I guess I’m trying to put myself in his shoes and I find it personally difficult to condemn him. After all, he tried to keep his HRT within medically acceptable levels, which would not constitute doping, it didn’t turn out that way and he got busted, and he
‘s man enough to admit to it. At some level I respect him for that.

As to setting masters weightlifting back, perhaps that’s true. But I also think that masters athletes should deserve a different sort of consideration when it comes to HRT. It might be time for sports organizations to engage in some erudite discussion in order to find a fair, sensible, scientific, and medically appropriate way to address this.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

“Jim, if you don’t mind, I’d like to keep this in the realm of weightlifting and with Ramos instead of bodybuilding.”
Dan, we CAN keep it in the realm of Weightlifting but,why?? It really doesn’t matter what the sport is.

“So let me clarify a bit what I mean with no harm was done.

First, I suppose that’s not quite correct. The harm that was done was to Ramos himself, his reputation, his motivation, his records, etc. And along those lines, and perhaps I’m actually being agist here, I don’t think that holding a senior citizen amateur athlete to the same “doping” standards as others is appropriate; after all, there is a difference between doping and HRT.”

Yep, there IS big difference between doping and HRT. Until the governing bodies have also made that distinction, the PRESENT RULES still stand. Just cuz I think we should be able to travel the highway at 75 MPH vs. the legal 65 MPH doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY make it right. When the laws are changed to a max MPH of 75 then and ONLY then will it be OK to do so. Don had a choice to err either way. He chose to say it was OK before the rules specifically said so.

“If I read between your lines accurately, you would seem to suggest, however, that any form of exogenous AAS use is doping, damaging to the sport, cheating, damaging to other athletes, etc. But how can this be if the substance can’t even be detected, as it was in Ramos’ case for 20 years?”
Well, how many times was he ACTUALLY tested in the past 20 years??

“Consider that the testing methodologies employed can detect one part per billion. That’s the equivalent to a pile of million dollars in pennies, and able to pick out that one bad penny.”
Wouldn’t it actually be equivalent to being able to pick out TEN bad pennies? I think your example comes out to be one in a hundred million?

“So not even that much was in his system. Or in the case of T, whatever was found was found to be well within the normal range. Or perhaps he went off several weeks before a meet in order to pee clean, and did. With all of that in mind, can one still consider what he did doping? Moreover, what sort of ergonenic benefits could he possibly have derived from that level or approach of use?”
So he POSSIBLY cycled off to pass the drug test?!?! Dan, that is so cheating,even the blind could see it!!

“I guess I’m trying to put myself in his shoes and I find it personally difficult to condemn him. After all, he tried to keep his HRT within medically acceptable levels, which would not constitute doping, it didn’t turn out that way and he got busted, and he
’s man enough to admit to it. At some level I respect him for that.”

I have NO problem with the HRT. Was he out in the open with his HRT. Did the officials and fellow competitors know? If no, then why not if he’s got nothing to hide?!?! As I was raised, if you’re sneaking it, whatever it is….its WRONG!!

“As to setting masters weightlifting back, perhaps that’s true.”

Hasn’t Weightlifting fought long and hard to keep the association with drugs down to a dull roar?? Now Masters Weightlifting has a tarnished image due to this selfish dickhead. Again, his actions affect many.

“But I also think that masters athletes should deserve a different sort of consideration when it comes to HRT. It might be time for sports organizations to engage in some erudite discussion in order to find a fair, sensible, scientific, and medically appropriate way to address this.”

It ABSOLUTELY is time for a change in regards to masters athletes and HRT. Bigger question is, will allowing Masters athletes to compete with HRT become a gateway to Masters Drug abuse with escalating dosages?? Human nature being what it is, I feel it may be best for HRT folks to compete in NON DRUG Tested meets. Allowing some hormones can become slippery slope.

[61pwcc]

Another thing that bothers me:
“After moving to Colorado Springs 20 years ago, Ramos gave himself testosterone shots, he said.”

Isn’t Colorado springs where the U.S. Weightlifting team is based?

[dwagman]

Jim, it’s important to keep this in the realm of weightlifting (WL) and Don Ramos…because it’s about Ramos and WL, and perhaps most importantly, the use of T in HRT. Also, not all substances/methods are banned by WADA year-round, not all sports test for the same substances/methods, there’s a difference between endogenous and exogenous substances, etc., etc.

Although Ramos lives in Colorado Springs, and although USAW has their training hall and administrative offices here, what happened to him in no way sheds any disparaging light on USAW, if that was your implication.

You seem to agree that HRT isn’t the same as doping. Yet you also seem to believe that engaging in HRT at such minute levels that can’t be detected by the insanely accurate, valid, and reliable testing technologies that are employed still constitutes cheating. As it turns out, the scientific community involved in doping control has discussed this issue and would disagree as WADA has specific policies in place for HRT under Therapeutic Use Exceptions. Ramos should’ve taken advantage of that as the policies would’ve been able to help him remain negative in doping control.

Also, and I don’t believe the rules in this regard have changed, whenever Ramos would’ve broken a record or won a national title in the last 20 years he would’ve been drug tested. Therefore, whatever happened most recently doesn’t taint his previous accomplishments. Of course him admitting to HRT for the past 20 years wasn’t necessary, nor a smart thing to do as it might open the door to more severe punitive actions. Besides, if before he didn’t exceed the 6:1 testosterone:epitestosterone ratio, which has been reduced to 4:1, then the ergogenic benefits of T are at best trivial.

Regarding my parts per billion comment, sometimes the forum leaves out digits. One part per billion is the equivalent to a pile of ten million dollars in pennies, and being able to pick out that one “offending” penny. Another way to look at it is one minute in two-thousand years. But in truth, this comparison actually diminishes the complexity of doping control as it goes far beyond just detecting a substance but also looks at several biological markers to confirm and support the notion that doping occurred.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Thom Van Vleck]

So do I have this correct when I say that HRT is keeping Hormone levels up after they drop with age or health problems while using steroids to build muscle is taking the levels above the “normal” range?

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[61pwcc]

“Jim, it’s important to keep this in the realm of weightlifting (WL) and Don Ramos…because it’s about Ramos and WL, and perhaps most importantly, the use of T in HRT. Also, not all substances/methods are banned by WADA year-round, not all sports test for the same substances/methods, there’s a difference between endogenous and exogenous substances, etc., etc.”

No, its NOT important to keep this in just the realm of WL and Don Ramos just because you want. Its OK to use any and all examples that help convey attitudes or perspectives that are pertinent to the discussion.

“Although Ramos lives in Colorado Springs, and although USAW has their training hall and administrative offices here, what happened to him in no way sheds any disparaging light on USAW, if that was your implication.”

It is a curious coincidence that a WLer got busted for steroids(or too much T:E) in the ‘hometown’ of the sport of which he competes.

“You seem to agree that HRT isn’t the same as doping. Yet you also seem to believe that engaging in HRT at such minute levels that can’t be detected by the insanely accurate, valid, and reliable testing technologies that are employed still constitutes cheating.”

Can’t be detected?? He got ‘detected’.

“As it turns out, the scientific community involved in doping control has discussed this issue and would disagree as WADA has specific policies in place for HRT under Therapeutic Use Exceptions. Ramos should’ve taken advantage of that as the policies would’ve been able to help him remain negative in doping control.”

So, if the policies are in place for HRT under Therapeutic Use Exceptions then, why did he get ‘caught’. Again, was he ‘transparent’ on what he was doing? Did the officials and FELLOW competitors know about his HRT?? If he simply decided to go with HRT but decided to not bother with the ‘paperwork’ of Therapeutic Use Exceptions, that places him outside the rules as well.

“Also, and I don’t believe the rules in this regard have changed, whenever Ramos would’ve broken a record or won a national title in the last 20 years he would’ve been drug tested. Therefore, whatever happened most recently doesn’t taint his previous accomplishments.”

Sorry, it most certainly DOES taint his previous accomplishments and maybe those of his peers!! You don’t get ‘caught’ or ‘busted’ obeying the rules.

“Of course him admitting to HRT for the past 20 years wasn’t necessary, nor a smart thing to do as it might open the door to more severe punitive actions. Besides, if before he didn’t exceed the 6:1 testosterone:epitestosterone ratio, which has been reduced to 4:1, then the ergogenic benefits of T are at best trivial.”

So trivial that he popped a piss test? Trivial enough to win? Trivial enough to break a national Record? Trivial enough to break a World Record??

“Regarding my parts per billion comment, sometimes the forum leaves out digits. One part per billion is the equivalent to a pile of ten million dollars in pennies, and being able to pick out that one “offending” penny. Another way to look at it is one minute in two-thousand years. But in truth, this comparison actually diminishes the complexity of doping control as it goes far beyond just detecting a substance but also looks at several biological markers to confirm and support the notion that doping occurred.”

Dan, if the comparison actually diminishes… then WHY DID YOU BRING IT UP?

Since there is a provision for HRT then they need to do when they cracked down on the drugs….make new weight classes. The records BEFORE HRT should remain. Make new records in new weight classes for the new masters athlete!

[KCSTRONGMAN]

HEre is a question. IF your T remained within acceptable limits, HRT would be permissible by USAWA standards, yes? IF that is the case, then how would this work with the age formula? I would assume this formula is to be the equalizer of aging and losing t levels. I am not pro nor against, just wondering?
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from JWCIII on September 16, 2013, 12:27[/b]
So do I have this correct when I say that HRT is keeping Hormone levels up after they drop with age or health problems while using steroids to build muscle is taking the levels above the “normal” range?

Oh Fearless Leader,

The key here is therapeutic use. WADA recognizes androgen deficiency or male hypogonadism as a legitimate reason for athletes to receive steroid treatment. The symptoms of concern to receive steroid treatment can include, among other things, the testes not producing physiological levels of T or having infertility issues.

WADA outlines six primary causes (e.g., testicular trauma, radiation treatment) and four secondary ones (e.g., pituitary disorders) for androgen deficiency, or not enough T production; they also recognize eight functional causes such as severe emotional distress (Ramos claims this), overtraining, etc.

For WADA to recognize a legitimate claim for HRT, the treating physician must submit a letter that covers excruciating detail regarding the patient’s history, physical exam, lab evaluations, and diagnosis. The approved treatment is either T or human Chorionic Gonadotropin where the route, dosage, and frequency of administration must meet specific criteria. The dosage must also be monitored based on specific criteria and duration of treatment can be life-long, though initial duration of approval is limited to four years with annual reviews.

Now, the WADA documentation doesn’t go into the details of your question regarding building muscle or age-related issues. Of course taking T can build muscle and strength, however, recent research has demonstrated that genetic links must be in place for this to occur in effective ways. What scientists have determined is that not all people respond to any given level of T the same way. So if we’re talking about purely physiologic levels of T that fall in that 4:1 ratio I mentioned earlier, two men might exhibit the exact same amount of T secretion and uptake, but with markedly different results. By extension, it’s quite possible then, that one guy needs HRT to match the T levels of another guy, but will never get ergogenic benefits from it…or might get noticeable ergogenic benefits from it.

Bottom line, T needs to remain within physiologic limits to pass doping control, but even that is difficult to quantify among all men in the world, which is one of the reasons why some endocrinologists suggest that T analysis for doping in sport should also include a method called gas chromatography/combustion/isotope ratio mass spectrometry. With this method, you can determine that a person took synthetic T even when his ratio falls within the 4:1 ratio and apparently some athletes have already been sanctioned for this. This additional testing method isn’t always employed for various reasons. At the end of the day, though, what’s important is what YOUR sports organization has in place and what THEIR rules state.

[b]Quote from KCSTRONGMAN on September 16, 2013, 17:15[/b]
HEre is a question. IF your T remained within acceptable limits, HRT would be permissible by USAWA standards, yes? IF that is the case, then how would this work with the age formula? I would assume this formula is to be the equalizer of aging and losing t levels. I am not pro nor against, just wondering?
ET

ET, that’s a good question. I, too, wonder about the rationale USAWA/IAWA have employed regarding the age standards. I would like to hear what Al, Denny, or any other people involved in this would have to say about that. One of my biggest gripes is that I automatically get placed into this age category, even though my primary purpose and driving motivator is to test myself in the Open Division. Besides, from a fiscal perspective, this is limiting as the organizations could earn more entry fees if competitors were allowed to enter more than one division, say Open and 45, and get to set records only in the division(s) they entered.

To consider from a scientific perspective is that the usual performance decrements associated with age are oversimplified and rather meaningless until a person is 60 or older, especially in strength sport. Also, from a hormonal perspective, and specifically T levels, the actual decrements seen in older men are so friggin’ small, it borders on the ridiculous, especially in trained men. The notion that as you age your T levels decrease and that therefore you’ll be weaker and/or less powerful is such an oversimplification that it borders on the idiotic.

The fact is that performance decrements, and increases, are due to many factors beyond just T and the other androgens floating around. One shouldn’t even state that T is the most important variable to consider. Fact is, I could manipulate your training in such a way that your post-training T levels would look like those of a sedentary 80-year old man. On the other hand, I could adjust a weight training older man’s training regimen in such a way that his T levels are similar to those of a 25-year old sedentary guy. In the end, your performance depends on a heck of a lot more than your T levels…or your chronological age.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Ben Edwards]

The first thing that popped in my head was – I am impressed that he is telling the truth! The truth. And not blaming anyone else for his positive test. Not using the old – “Hey, somebody must’ve put ‘steroids’ in my oatmeal the morning of the competition” excuse. Or any one of the 100 versions of that all-too familiar BS tactic.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Author]

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