Hackenschmidt Floor Press?

[Ben Edwards]

Hackenschmidt Floor Press?

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Thom Van Vleck]

There will be a story with the rules soon, but basically, think of a pullover and press without the pullover, the weight will be on blocks and you will just push straight up.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Ben Edwards]

Thanks for that description Thom! Explained it very clearly. Might see some of you guys there.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Ben Edwards]

I put the Olympic bar up on cement blocks. The is at the height where if I lie down and grip the bar my elbows are off the ground a little over an inch. But my upper arms are touching the ground. Figure this will be close enough to the position at the contest not to spend any more time thinking about it.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Al Myers]

The floor press will be done lying on the platform with no arch. The bar height will be that of touching the chest for each lifter. This will be adjusted by blocks under the plates so that the bar touches the chest. The lift will start at the chest, and finish when both arms are locked out.

I’ll try to get a blog ran on this soon explaining the full rules of this new OTSM lift (unofficial as of now). Al

[Ben Edwards]

Wow, thanks Al! That is very strict and good to know so I can be aware of what the rules require.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Ben Edwards]

I can say that these rules are absolutely brutal. Set up my bar this morning at 4am. Bar was touching my chest, no arch, etc. I was barely able to push over 100lbs less than I did with the setup I used the other day. Because my arms had no leverage at all in that position. So this will be interesting to see how the rest of you guys fare with these rules. It might mean I don’t have enough chest depth to match my arm length.

I tried using a wide grip and my shoulder can’t handle even 95lbs so I had to go the much narrower route and try to “lever” the bar up with wrists and arms bent backwards a bit.

Don’t take this as a complaint by the way. Just stating my experience so others might benefit from it and do the homework to figure out what works for them.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from dinoman on November 27, 2012, 15:37[/b]
…The bar height will be that of touching the chest for each lifter.

So how will this be adjusted for smaller lifters for whom a barbell loaded with 2 45’s won’t touch their chest? Will you raise the lifter somehow or would you use smaller plates, such as 35s or 25s?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

oh how that question will be answered in tomorrows blog story…haha Dinoman

PS If anyone has input on how they would like to see this rule written – today is the time to voice your concern!!!!

[dwagman]

OK DinoAl, how ’bout having it similar as the Peoples DL in that it’s specified how far off the ground the barbell shall be? With regular plates the barbell is about 9″ off the ground. Of course Dino’s wouldn’t fit under that, so one could stipulate that the bar shall be, say, 15″ off the ground. Of course some lifters will be at an advantage, while others at a disadvantage, but that’s really no different than most lifts.

Alternatively, it could be stipulated that the barbell shall be, say, between 1″-2″ off the lifter’s chest. That way, when using blocks, there’s a margin of error that can be played with since it would likely be rather hard to be specific (see Anderson sq…”not over two thirds the height of the lifter” meaning that it could be somewhat less).

Then again, the current suggestion, where the barbell shall touch the lifter’s chest is pretty clear. But then, what about the smaller lifter such as lighter weight class men, teens, women for whom the barbell with 45’s wouldn’t touch the chest, or where 35s/25s would be too small?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I would say the barbell is the distance off the chest as required by the length of the lifters forearm. The way it is written, with it touching the chest, I would be completely oout of position to do a floor press. The bar would either be too far in front of or behind my elbows. Any time I have done a floor press, the BB is a couple inches off my chest in order that by elbows are under the bar so that I can press it. Maybe even, instead of taking it off blocks, take it out of a rack or get a lift off. Then lower it until your elbows are on the floor. Press it on a press command. That way there are no advantages given by the rule or the equipment. The only advantages would come from the lifters own leverages. anyhow, food for though. Hopefully not just incoherent ramblings
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

That’s a really good point, ET. I was also thinking that if the barbell would be touching my chest as I lie on the floor, how would I get my elbows underneath the barbell? I’d have to first do a hybrid French curl or pull-over, then press the barbell.

So maybe the rule could read “…barbell height off the floor is to be no more than 1-2 inches more than the lifter’s forearm length.” I’m leaving a margin of error in there because I can imagine that it would be nearly impossible to have blocks of all sorts of sizes to meet every lifters forearm length, or by 1″ increments, etc.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Chad Ullom]

I’m going to have similar issues ET

[Anonymous]

Gotta agree with everyone here if you are someone who is long armed and not barrel chested your not gonna be doing any kind of weight on this lift.

Jesse

[Ben Edwards]

[b]Quote from KCSTRONGMAN on November 28, 2012, 14:38[/b] Maybe even, instead of taking it off blocks, take it out of a rack or get a lift off. Then lower it until your elbows are on the floor. Press it on a press command. ET

I think this makes the most sense.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[murdo01]

I think that the idea of having the bar set at forearm length, with the elbow on the floor, + 2″ if needed. Taking the bar from a rack and lowering it to the floor would activate a “stretch reflex” which is what is supposed to be eliminated if I understand the purpose of these lifts. Maybe having the bar handed to the lifter with the upper arms and elbow on the floor, forearms perpendicular to the floor, would act like an infinately adjustable block. Plus no lowering of the bar should be allowed. I consider these lifts to be assistance exercises designed to strenghen a specific range of motin, in which the lifter may or may not be able to use more than in the parent lift.

Murdo

[dwagman]

The stretch reflex is highly related to the amortization phase in muscle contractions. The amortization phase is the time taken for a muscle to switch from an eccentric contraction to a concentric contraction. Picture yourself doing a squat. As you descend into the hole, your muscles contract eccentrically. Then as you blast out of the hole they contract concentrically. The shorter the time period between hitting the hole and blasting out of it, the more stored energy your muscles release and the more weight you can move. The longer time you spend in the hole, the more stored energy your muscles lose and the less weight you can move. This is the main reason why box squats are pretty worthless for increasing squat strength. And this isn’t my personal opinion, this is scientific fact. We reviewed several studies in past issues of JOPP (http://www.jopp.us) specifically about this.

So you can see, although a stretch reflex type action could take place in the Hack Floor Press, how much of that would be realized depends on how much time there is between lowering of the weight and pressing it. Conceivably, if the lifter is required to hold the position after lowering for 2-3 seconds, then around 90% of stored energy would be lost and this would not be a concern.

Hope you guys can appreciate a lil’ science talk. Nothing wrong with training the muscle between the ears, too, eh?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Ben Edwards]

[b]Hope you guys can appreciate a lil’ science talk. Nothing wrong with training the muscle between the ears, too, eh?

Dan

I appreciate the science talk Dan! My wife Carrie and I still remember you and your dogs fondly from the Super Grip Challenge days. I hope your input on the Hack Floor Press means you’ll be competing in the Dino Challenge because it would be good to see you again.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Al Myers]

First of all – I want to THANK everyone who has responded on this topic with their input. I’m going to “hold off” a few days before i propose a written rule on this new OTSM, as I’m taking all of this discussion into account.

Second – these OTSM lifts should NOT be difficult technique-type lifts for anyone to do. They should be of the type that pretty much anyone can do them without having the “perfect” body type for them. We already have enough of those difficult type lifts with the traditional all round lifts already in place.

Also in holding with the philosophy that these lifts be based around a lifting movement that an old time strongman performed is very important. Hack did this type of floor press using oversized plates, thus removing the pullover portion of the lift. Much of the difficulty in the pullover and press is the pullover. I must have the perfect body type and leverages for this, and incorrectly assumed that others would be the same. I often train the floor press with the plates supported on blocks (4 -3/4″ high) with the bottom of the bar at 13″ to strengthen my press in the P&P. In this postition my chest touches the bar with my elbows in perfect press position underneath. I’m even able to get a slight chest heave in this position. But obviously, I’m different than most.

I don’t like the idea of measuring forearm lengths to set the bar height as that’s too complicated and leads to subjectivity. I also hate the idea of lowering the bar as that differs too much from what Hackenschmidt did (as well as leading to a press command).

I would like to know what would be a good height? Is 15″ acceptable (to bottom of bar) for most? I would like everyone to try that height and give me your feedback. Al

[Ben Edwards]

[b]I would like to know what would be a good height? Is 15″ acceptable (to bottom of bar) for most? I would like everyone to try that height and give me your feedback. Al

This is the exact height (coincidentally) that I used the other day to establish a Floor Press baseline. I barely got 250lbs for a single. Missed it on the first attempt. But I used an arch so I think it will shave about 25lbs off that weight lifting it strictly. My best guess is that my bench press for a single is probably only 225lbs these days. Partly due to injury and mostly due to not training it. Although I did spend a few weeks recently benching very light – hoping to rehab my shoulder slowly – with the result that my shoulder never got over being constantly tender. So I stopped benching yet again. Only mentioning my estimated full range max for those that are interested in the difference between the standard lift and the Floor Press version at this height. Some might get a lot more carryover on the raised height.

One lifter that reads my blog e-mailed me and said that he must get a lot of poundage out of the stretch reflex on a touch and go bench press compared to the result of his Floor Press experiment. He pushed 45lbs less (on the same height setup I used) on the Floor Press than his full range bench press. I thought that was an interesting result and wanted to share it.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[dwagman]

Hey Ben, those were the days. 🙂 Loved Kevin’s barn! Wonder what that boy is up to. I bet my grip is stronger than his at this point. I should call him and let him know. LOL

Al, I don’t think that measuring forearms adds subjectivity, rather objectivity. Besides, how is doing that any different than determining bar height in the Anderson SQ? There’s a precedent.

But in reading between the lines of your post, and considering the OTSM aspect, perhaps there just is no easy answer. OTSM were dudes with specific strengths that they exploited. A lot of these strengths were leverage and body type dependent, meaning that Hack excelled in certain things that others couldn’t, vice versa. With that in mind, perhaps the Hack Floor Press is simply one of those lifts not everybody can do, not just not do well (as the People’s DL where the bar is fixed at 18″ and everybody can lift from that height, but some can just do it better than others). Perhaps that’s just part of the sport and shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as a negative. After all, there are many USAWA meets that I don’t compete in because I don’t want to do the lifts for one reason or another (enjoyment, injury potential, etc.). That doesn’t diminish the sport or the organization, it just makes me choose, just like when I go get coffee…I only buy the kind I like.

With all that in mind, perhaps your 15″ block idea is the best. At least that would allow everybody who’s interested in doing this lift to be able to train it under the exact conditions found in competition.

Regardless of what you decide, it won’t impact my decision whether to head Dino way or not. But how much beer you have for afterwards will!

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan, Forearm length is only objective if the rules state something like this, “the length of the forearm is determined by measuring the distance from the point of the Olecranon Process of the ulna to the Styloid process of the radius”. It becomes subjective when no one has any idea what I’m saying (besides anatomy geeks like you and me LOL). The difference with the Anderson Squat is that it based on a person’s height, and everyone knows how to measure that (and in a World where everyone likes to “stretch” their height, it came as no surprise that the lifters left their shoes on when we measured height at the OTSM Championships to get their bar height higher).

My point with these OTSM lifts is that I want them to be of the type that most all lifters can do well with, and not discourage lifters from entering OTSM meets because there’s a “bad one” in it (like many of the traditional all round comps). Al

[KCSTRONGMAN]

“Olecranon Process of the ulna to the Styloid process of the radius”

You went and lost me. And dan, I certainly do not object to the science talk, I just wont understand it (LOL)

I would guess the 15″ would be good, but I will give it a try
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

Well, I sure don’t want to give ET a headache, but Al I just have to disagree here.

I don’t think that the rules have to use scientific terms to be valid and reliable. As it relates to this discussion, they could simply state that the bar height shall equal forearm length as measured from the elbow to the bottom of the palm. And that would make it objective (who cares about half an inch error in measurement one way or the other) and in my view this is as fair to every lifter as possible. The downside is that it would require a huge amount of blocks to meet every possible height and that doesn’t seem practical from a meet director’s perspective.

So what’s the next line of reasoning? This is an OTSM lift and as such, perhaps the execution should be based precisely on what they used to do. What was the height from which Hackenschmidt did this lift? Whatever that is, or as nearly an approximation that we can get, that’s what USAWA will use. End of story. Some will excel at this lift, others won’t…and that’s just what sport is all about.

But what distresses me actually the most, is why Al is avoiding my beer question. Does anybody know? Is Al watching his figure and abstaining as of late?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Ben Edwards]

I will compete in the Dino Challenge regardless of the rules. It doesn’t matter to anything but my ego whether I lift 45lbs or 300lbs.

I did the Floor Press this morning and remembered not to arch. That was hard because arching just feels natural – more so on the floor press for me at least. Set the bar height where the bottom of the bar was at 15″ again.

Only got 223lbs this morning. 242lbs went up a few inches and I couldn’t push through it. So my estimate of losing about 25lbs without arching was spot on for me.

I can’t wait to see what some of you strong bench guys do on this event. It’ll be neat to see some big lifts. A bodybuilder-type acquaintance of mine (Cory) texted me last night and said he heard I was experimenting with the floor press. A buddy of mine in Harrisonville told him about it. So I asked Cory what he was capable of because he is not only hugely muscled and shredded – but very strong. He has a phenomenal untrained grip. I met him back in 2005 and he floored me with how easily he did some pretty significant benchmark grip feats like one hand pinching 5 tens with both hands like it was nothing. Hubbed a 45lb plate on his first try. And I think he pulled 180lbs on the Rolling Thunder that day – the first time touching one. Anyway, Cory said he routinely bench pressed back when he was in his late 20s and early 30s (I’d guess he’s early 40s now) before injuring his shoulders like most benchers eventually do. He is also a guy that although I’ve only seen him in person once years ago – struck me as a guy with a phenomenal memory for numbers and a guy who never exaggerates personal strength levels. He said he had floor pressed (a spotter placed the bar in his hands – while his elbows were flat on the floor)485lbs back in the early 90s at a bodyweight around 242lbs. That’s a stunning level of strength in my opinion. His best touch and go bench press at the time was 425lbs – according to him. Who knows, maybe that is a pretty doable lift for a 400lb bencher but it sure sounds nuts to me.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Al Myers]

Dan, I agree with you on that having a different bar height for each lifter would make it difficult for a meet promoter to have this lift in a meet. At the OTSM Champs with the Anderson SQ in it, we had a few lifters with the same bar height, but Thom had to have several pieces of plywood there to get the right height for each lifter that had to be constantly changed, and took alot of time. Having the bar height at a set height (say 15 inches) for everyone would make things simple.

Now back to the 1/2 inch error potential –
I know at times I wish I had another half inch (hic, hic), and have missed lifts by that much (BP lockouts, pressouts on overhead lifts, etc). One mans half inch becomes another mans full inch. Not exact and too subjective. haha

Again I want to thank everyone for the input on this topic. Al

[Author]

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