How to get folks to try all round lifting?

[Randy Smith]

Does anybody have any suggestions to attract new people to all round lifting? “Serious” lifters up here seem to be afraid of our lifts, or can’t understand why anybody would want to focus on anything other than the three power lifts. We’ve got an olympic weightlifting training center up here, but they’re young, dedicated to what they’re doing, in a different world, and don’t stick around for more than a couple of years. ???

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Great question Randy. We clearly need to increase membership. And introduce new lifters to the great sport of all-round. I have been able to pull some folks in through my old strongman connections, though the group is much smaller than my strongman group was. With strongman and crossfit being so popular, there’s only so much interest in the more fringe strength sports. But I do believe there is room for growth. Are there areas that we could be advertising? Are there online avenues we could be drawing in prospective membership? I intend on trying, but am welcome to ideas. I think it is imperative that we grow into other territories. I have said it before, but it is easy to find a meet in PA area, MO/KS, and Boston, historically. There has got to be a handful of strength athletes in a number of different territories, if we could get a club or two established here and there, with the occasional meet in each of these territories.

I do know what drew me was seeing that Clarks had a meet in which the crucifix was included, and as a strongman competitor, I loved the crucifix. Initially, I loved all-round, but was offput with a number of the lifts. The number I am offput with is less now, but not all of our lifts are necessarily meant for mass consumption. Most folks can do a standard bench press, but what percent of the population can do a mansfield lift or a full garner? It takes a unique lifter to be a true all-rounder, so we need to find those individuals and get them invested. Anyhow, just a few thoughts. Thanks for the discussion, Randy
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Denny Habecker]

I have tried for years to get other people involved in Allround lifting with not too much luck. I have gotten a few lifters in the past, but most of them are no longer active. Every time I see someone at New York Fitness that looks like he could be a competitive lifter, I tell him about Allround lifting. So far that has not gotten us one new lifter. I will keep trying though.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I think if we all keep trying, we can nickel and dime our way to a stronger membership.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[RJ]

I hope the following will be of some help.

I, like Denny above, tried for years but with no luck.

As to Randy’s comment about other lifters, I would hear University gym student’s (average age of 24 y.o.) comment:
-She is doing that lift wrong
-That is a dangerous lift and she should not be allowed to do it.
-She should not be allowed to do that lift because it is endangering others. [For example the 1 hand snatch. They would think that I could not control it and it would fly off the platform.]
-I don’t get it? Why would you do that? A better lift would be….
-She should be doing that lift with dumbbells not a barbell
-She is not using the equipment appropriately.

You get the idea. The University gym goers were mostly about criticizing me to their friends.

But, of course, no one criticized Dan when he use to lift at the University gym. In fact, from the comments I heard, he had a male admirers.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I think we have to recognize that this is not for everyone. But there must be others like us out there. We just need to find them. Loving the conversation.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Randy Smith]

The only person I recall that was interested enough to checkout our website and start training some of the lifts (he really liked Zerchers) was probably in his 40’s and previously into high level Brazilian jiu jitsu competition. But he “disappeared” not long after COVID started. The other person who seems truly interested is a greco-roman wrestler who trains at the olympic training center. But he’s wrapped up in wrestling now. If he stays in the area he may be a candidate when he “ages out” of competition.

I have wondered if those of us who continue to get satisfaction and enjoyment from all round lifting for extended periods of time are “wired differently” than most folks, including most “weightlifters” (i.e., olympic, power, strongman, etc.). But, if so, I wonder what that really means and how we find those like minded people.

I am hoping that a few of the younger lifters at the gym where I work out get disenchanted with powerlifting or get bored with focusing on three lifts, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

It would be nice to find somebody who is interested enough to play with the postal lifts, but it hasn’t happened yet.

[dwagman]

This thread got me thinking between sets…I believe it’s abundantly clear that something needs to happen to increase membership. As a first step I’d talk to ex-members and competitors. The organization should reach out to them and ask them to answer these questions with complete honesty:
1. Why are you no longer a member?
2. Why don’t you compete anymore?
3. What would it take to get you to become a member again and to compete again?

To follow, additional ideas that came to mind. I have them in two categories and the order is random. I hope this will lead to more ideas, discussions, and most importantly—action.

General
● Reject and fight the status quo.
● In competitions add some USAWA lifts that are more main-stream such as chin-ups, pull-ups, rack lifts, etc.
● De-emphasize the number of weird and dangerous lifts.
● Rewrite rules for lifts that don’t conform to the accepted norm of doing them, e.g., curls, bench dip, French curl, etc.
● Ask people active on FB, Instagram, etc. to help in advertising the sport and competitions.
● Have some themed meets around PL, WL, Strongman, etc. while adding a few all-round lifts in order to draw in those sport’s competitors.
● Live-stream meets and eventually monetize that allowing for reinvestment.
● Hold virtual meets and eventually monetize that allowing for reinvestment.
● Use Postals as an entry-free intro in to all-round and advertise the meets online, on social media sites, etc.
● Offer certificates for class winners, have awards, t-shirts, etc., for all meets.
● Include rep lifts.
● Link Forum to FB and other social media, vice versa.
● Have greater variety of lifts; certain lifts seem to repeat themselves at Nationals, Postals, etc. Why is the pull-over and press/push and one-armed C&J so frequently contested?
● Use social networking more effectively…advertise meets on other FB pages with nice posters like IAWA-UK creates.

Organization
● EB to appoint a Director of Development.
● Develop talking points and strategy that all can use and implement in recruiting; something kinda like the Army’s Code of Conduct card.
● Ask for help in implementation of growth projects.
● Pay a professional to advise on growth strategies, how to most effectively use social media, etc.
● Understand that advancing the sport is a prolonged effort that will take years.
● Add Paypal to website so that people can become members and enter meets within seconds via their phone; link that to USAWA’s FB.
● Records for Open and Senior class; the younger lifters should have the exact same opportunity to break records as Masters.
● Entry fee for all meets and reinvest.
● Eliminate age formulas. Young lifters can’t win, so why would they compete? Also, who can really comprehend why an older lifter who was out totaled by 100’s of pounds still ends up the overall winner? It just lacks common sense.
● Have the records on the website as pulldowns like USAPL and Grip Sport; PDF and Excel too difficult to access via phone.
● Make the Forum more user-friendly, Iron Mind’s Forum could be a template though there are others.
● Voting for all not just at national meeting and make agenda known weeks if not months in advance.
● Develop instructional videos of lifts w/ rules of performance and place on USAWA YouTube Channel.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman. Reason: bullets
• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Something else occurred to me regarding videos of our lifts with rules…why not have the Rule Book as a webpage? For one, that allows much easier access, particularly by phone, but it would also allow for the inclusion of videos of lifters doing a particular lift. Naturally, to make it more web friendly, the Rule Book would require some editing and code (such as direct links from the TOC to a lift or section and back), but it would make our sport more easily accessible to interested individuals.

Of course videos would require some editing as well to make them web-ready, etc. I’d be happy to help in this effort…just let me know…and I have lots of videos from lots of lifts and lifters that I took at meets I competed in. Like I said, just let me know…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Thom Van Vleck]

So my connection to the USAWA goes back to 1979 and a pre-USAWA odd lift meet put on by Bill Clark. I haven’t competed in years but I do try and come judge some meets and help out.

1. I liked record days and then we went to this 5 record limit. I don’t understand why and organization that has so many lifts and so many open slots (no records have been set) would do that. I used to host record days, but when that rule was put in I saw no reason to go to the trouble. Almost felt like I was the reason for the rule!

2. I would look at meets and see two or three lifts I was willing to try and then some others I had no interest in. As I have gotten older there are certain lifts I just won’t do anymore due to injuries. Not sure how you fix that.

3. Allowing some gear. Not sure where you draw the line, but I know if some supportive gear was allowed I’d be more likely to compete.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Thom, on your number 3, I think it is a tricky line to walk to stay true to our roots, but also interest new lifters in giving it a shot. I know the whole knee sleeve debate years ago was a pretty heated one with very strong opinions on both sides.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Randy Smith]

I came across this thread on Reddit

It looks like there are interested folks out there (including two posters that are and/or were USAWA members).

[Randy Smith]

Hmmm. I thought the link would come through. If you search “The Odd, the Old and the Original: A case for Atypical Lifting” should come up. [It looks like I don’t know how to properly add a link to a forum post]

[Randy Smith]

Also, Wow! Lots of ideas have mentioned that merit their own discussions to figure out how to implement.

Thom’s and ET’s comments about supportive gear probably deserve their own discussion. I’m wondering what supportive gear Thom would like to be able to use, and how “raw” the USAWA (and IAWA) would like to be.

Dan’s comments caused me to think about how I found out and got involved in all around lifting. First, I noticed brief recurring articles in Milo that mentioned Zercher, hip, hand and thigh, harness, etc lifts. Nobody up here knew what those were. I was curious. In 2001 or 2002 found a VHS tape of the USAWA 2000 Nationals sold by Roger LaPointe’s Atomic Athletic. I thought these were interesting lifts and decided to try them. I also found a weightlifting book from the 1950’s at the local library that described how to do several one handed lifts (with old records listed). At some point I found the USAWA website that had Bill Clark’s contact information, and ended up getting Bill “Strength Journal”. Then somebody locally encouraged me to go to the 2003 Nationals in Youngstown. While driving there I’m wondering why I’m going 500 plus miles to do this, but it was a great experience.

So, having some website links to videos of how to do our “core” or “classic” lifts (whatever those are) would make it easy for folks to see what we are really doing. A USAWA youtube channel is a nice idea, but my limited impression is that this would take a fair amount of work to set up. Maybe somebody in our organization is knowledgable and facile enough to set something like that up after getting some video footage (solicited from the membership, from a Nationals or record day, or ?).

5 lifts on record days? Probably merits another discussion (mostly by others because I’ve not been to a record day. Travel distance has dissuaded me.). My limited understanding is that the limit was set to ease the burden for the person keeping the record list up to date.

I decided I’m going to ask some of the personal trainers I know if any of their clients might be interested in this. Hopefully I can find somebody to do postal lifts with. We’ll see.

[Denny Habecker]

Randy is right. The five lift limit was made to make it easier on our record keeper. Keeping track of thousands of records is no easy task.
Allowing gear is a slippery slope. We already allow knee wraps for squats. Do we want to allow squat suits and bench shirts that take 2 or 3 guys to help you put on? I know there are quite a few lifts that I liked when I was younger, that I no longer can do. That’s just the way it is. I just do the lifts I can. I don’t think our sport will ever become mainstream, but if we can all at least recruit a few new members, we can keep this organization alive.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Here is that link, Randy:
https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/t9ncr4/the_odd_the_old_and_the_original_a_case_for/

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

Thom, I totally agree with you regarding the 5-lift limit on record day. For one, it’s totally unnecessary because according to the Rule Book the Meet Director always had the option of limiting the number of lifts or the duration of the meet. But another consideration is that it’s wholly unfair to lifters after that change passed. There are individuals in our sport who benefited from being able to rack up 100’s of records when there was no 5-lift limit. Now that there’s a lift limit those individuals’ numbers will never be able to be broken. That rule needs to be repealed, for sure.

I think your second point is rather valid, too, though not just for the injury aspect of things. What makes this sport so great is that you have lots of alternatives, even in a meet where the lifts are set (unlike a Record Day). You always have the option of not doing a particular lift, just doing a token attempt…whatever. You can still total and place. How awesome is that?

As to gear, not allowing it is a no-brainer and here’s why. Our sport is about testing the strongest people’s maximal strength. If you can only do a 505-pound 12” base squat with knee wraps, and without them your squat drops to 475, then you’re obviously not strong enough to squat 505…a no-brainer. Why, then, would a sport that tests physical strength allow lifters to wear gear that artificially inflates strength? It lacks reason and common sense. As to arguments that the gear makes a lift safer, one must turn to research in that regard and not opinion; such research renders those opinions nonsense. Arguments that make the point that the gear allows a person with an injury to still compete are also nonsense because sport is fundamentally about physical excellence and superiority. A person that’s injured is not in a state of physical excellence and providing artificial means to allow the injured person to compete anyway is against the fundamental concept of sport. The injured person will just have to suck it up and perform below his/her standard, not compete, wait until the injury has healed, or simply skip the offending lift.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Thom Van Vleck]

Dan, thanks for the support on the first two issues. And believe it or not I agree with the second issue. But I ask you, why do we allow belts? or jocks straps, or shoes? The Greeks didn’t need them! haha but seriously, why the belts?

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[dwagman]

Thom, nice bait. Of course you know the main reasons why people use belts: They believe it protects the back from injury and allows them to lift more weight. As with so many common beliefs, this is false. All some belts do is allow a person to lift more weight—in my case 35 pounds in the SQ with a PL belt, while all belts create weaknesses in the back, misplace stressors on the back, and increase injury potential. The research is rather clear on this and explains the mechanisms as to why.

Bottom line, the only lift in which a person should wear a belt is the continental-to-belt…because without a belt you couldn’t do that lift…<snicker>…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I can see where you guys are coming from in limiting the number of lifts at a record day. Like Thom said, we have lifts with few records in them at all, and certainly holes in our record list. I do wish you guys could understand the amount of work our record’s director has to put in to keep our list current. I am overwhelmed at times with my part in it, which I am sure is minimal compared to the work Johnny has put in. It is not infrequently that I get communication about mistakes (whether it be on our end or that of the meet promoter) that we have to fix. And please do not mistake this as complaining, because I absolutely think it is important for the organization, and the lifters in general that we keep our records accurately. I can imagine what it would be like to have trained to achieve something like that, only to not be credited with it. I know that when Al was records director, I contacted him more than once about errors I identified. Allowing unlimited amount of records on records days would certainly overload our director, and would potentially lend itself o further mistakes using the current method we have. I would be opposed to going back unless there was a method by which to streamline the process (say someone figured out how to automatically update a records list from posted results and such).

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

While I can appreciate the effort the Record Director has to put in to keeping the record list up-to-date and accurate, I also feel that whatever our sport requires to be done needs to be done. It is patently unfair to all competitors to have allowed an unlimited number of records to be set in a Record Day and then, all of a sudden, limit that to only 5 lifts. As I stated before, this means that those individuals with 100’s of records to their name can never be replaced—now a person can’t live long enough to bump themselves to the top ranks of the Century Club. Since this represents an entirely unfair situation for current lifters, I propose the following solutions:

1. Keep the 5-lift Record Day limit:
a. But i) eliminate the Century Club list or ii) retire it and start over.
b. If USAWA keeps the current Record Day limit for the main argument stated, i.e., helping out the Records Director, then the number of lifts per ordinary meet would also need to be limited to 5 otherwise that argument is rendered nonsensical.
c. Eliminate the 5-year jump for Masters and increase it to 10-year jumps as that would significantly reduce the Records Director’s efforts (the current records list would be retired, not eliminated, and USAWA would start the list over).

2. Establish a compromise:
a. See what some of the largest number of Record Day records there were in the past. Say it was around 30; based on that limit Record Days to half of that, i.e., 15 records. Presumably a person could live long enough so that with a 15-record limit climbing high in the Century Club would be possible.
b. Limit the number of Record Days per year instead of the number of record lifts.

3. Repeal the 5-lift Record Day limit and help out the Records Director by:
a. Splitting the records list in to different categories that different people would be responsible for (e.g., record recorders) such as men, women, juniors, seniors, open, and perhaps masters in 10-year jumps or a combination thereof;
b. Splitting up the number of lifters any one record recorder would be responsible for from a given meet.
In implementing the above concept the Records Director would oversee USAWA’s “Records Division” with “Records Recorders” compiling the list.

On that note, I wanted to see how time-consuming it would be to add a fictitious lifter’s record to the list in some lift. My fictitious lifter was a Senior Class lifter named Hermann Görner, Jr. who at 110 kg did a 450-pound Deadlift—fingers—middle on 3-31-2022 at the Meatheads Ranch Classic. The process of checking the list and adding this lifter took 2 min. 24 sec. Personally, I don’t consider that an inordinately time-consuming effort and will therefore offer to volunteer as a Records Recorder if USAWA goes that route.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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