Knee Sleeves

[Al Myers]

Knee Sleeves

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Email sent, but I am hoping to be there in person
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Please keep sending in your vote on the Knee Sleeves. I only have 12 members who have sent in their vote to date. These members are: (I won’t reveal how they voted, that’s my secret!)

Darren Barnhart
Rudy Bletscher
Dave Glasgow
Troy Goetsch
Denny Habecker
Jesse Jobe
Jim Malloy
John McKean
Al Myers
LaVerne Myers
Eric Todd
Scott Tully

[Anonymous]

You will be getting plenty more from the guys and ladies from my gym.

Jesse

[Al Myers]

Got a few more votes.

I’ll give an update tomorrow where the vote stands. Al

[Al Myers]

Please keep sending in your votes. The deadline is September 1st. This is a listing of those who have voted so far:

Darren Barnhart
Bryan Benzel
Rudy Bletscher
Dave Glasgow
Troy Goetsch
Denny Habecker
Alison Jobe
Gabby Jobe
Jesse Jobe
Jim Malloy
John McKean
Art Montini
Al Myers
LaVerne Myers
Eric Todd
Scott Tully
Chad Ullom
Tedd Van Vleck
Thom Van Vleck

That’s only 19 members out of the close to 100 that are registered with the USAWA. That’s not too good. I want to get over 50% participation in this vote. Now for the preliminary vote count:

For – 8
Against – 11

It’s so close at this point that EVERY VOTE counts!!! Al

[Al Myers]

We are now up to 26 casting their vote for/against knee sleeves. Those that have are listed below:

Darren Barnhart
Bryan Benzel
Rudy Bletscher
Dave Glasgow
Troy Goetsch
Denny Habecker
Alison Jobe
Gabby Jobe
Jesse Jobe
Jim Malloy
John McKean
Art Montini
Al Myers
LaVerne Myers
Eric Todd
Scott Tully
Chad Ullom
Mac Capello
Dan Bunch
Josh Haggan
Zach Jelinek
Dean Ross
Tedd Van Vleck
Thom Van Vleck
Tim Songster
Mike Murdock

VOTE SO FAR:

FOR 13
AGAINST 13

You see – every vote counts at this point!

[Thom Van Vleck]

I guess I want to discuss this a little as I’m surprised at the results.

My feeling is that it’s a pandora’s box. In Highland Games we have the Weight Over Bar event where the thrower has to throw a 56lb weight over a bar, kinda like a high jump bar that goes higher and higher with the highest being the winner. Well, the rules don’t say you can’t spin but traditionally, it was done from a standing position. One day, someone did spin, and while it was debated, nobody stopped it. Soon, guys were spinning all over the place. Hell, I did it when I realized it was a superior way to do it. Now, some games allow it, some don’t and it is a point of contention. Why? Because you can throw higher spinning….but then others argue you don’t! In my mind, it’s a separate event. Guys argue about it and in the mean time records are broken until only the spinners have all the records and nobody can remember who did what standing, spinning, or whatever. Now, there are guys double spinning!

My point, I like spinning, but I don’t consider it the same. I like knee sleeves, I own two pair! But this is an pandora’s box and we either need to create a “geared” record list and ungeared (good lord…how many records would that be!……500 pages!) or just keep it raw and a guy can were his knee sleeve to keep warm, take it off to lift, then go on with life. For the record, I voted no, but in reality, I would rather see all gear allowed with limitations. But to me, it’s all or nothing and its disrespectful to past champs to beat records with advantages they didn’t have.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

Thom, Thank you for your input on this, you made some very good points. I’ll be honest here – I’m REALLY disappointed in the number of votes cast so far for an issue this big and the the lack of opinions from lifters defending their viewpoints. Only 25% of the membership so far have even voted! That tells me that this issue doesn’t mean much to the remaining 75%. Or maybe it is just the apathy of voting now-a-days, with the attitude that an individuals opinion doesn’t count for anything so why show up to vote.

I’m really glad we are doing this poll as it gives EVERYONE an opportunity to be part of this decision. I will say this – if you don’t vote NOW I don’t want to hear you B***** later!! Al

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I voted yes, but did so with reservation-that I completely see your point. However, I disagree whole heartedly with the separate record list bit. So, you have used knee sleeves? Have you ever lifted anything with them that you would not have lifted without? Maybe there are types where that would be the case. I have used york and Dino sleeves, and have never gotten a single pound over what I would have done without them. Just like Benching with wrist wraps. Never a single pound over, but it allows me to protect a joint in order to not have to spend the next month rehabbing it. Now, like I said, maybe there are some that would give you weight, and maybe that is something that needs to be researched out before a decision is made, I dont know. And if the knee sleeves thing fails I will not lose a moments sleep over it, I will just train with them, when I feel I need them, and compete without. It wont make any difference, as I will lift the same amount one way or the other, as long as I am healthy.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

Neoprene knee sleeves are not geared. To say they aid in a lift is a miseducated statement, meaning no offense. But I am with ET I get nothing out of a NEOPRENE knee sleeve, but I do own knee sleeves that are like a knee wrap and do get some poundages out of them. But they help immensly in being in less pain. I am amazed especially by the amount of older lifters by how many no votes there are. I can guarantee when I am in my 40 and 50s I will be wearing neoprene damn near head to toe, hell I am almost that way now on workout days. I think people need to understand that neoprene sleeves are not geared lifting, they don’t give you any extra poundages, but they help keep the joint warm. I have had both meniscus removed and on squat days, if I go without my sleeves I pay for it dearly, can I squat without and squat the same amount of weight, yes, but the next day the pain is worse.

Jesse

[Thom Van Vleck]

OK, JESSE! I’ve got lots of edumacation……Jethro Bodine ain’t got nuthin’ on me. HAHAHA So, here’s my re-butt-al. I will say that there was a recent debate on the Pendlay forum and there were alot of arguments that they did and didn’t offer support.

How can you say it’s “not supportive” when you then go on to say how sore your knees are when you don’t use them? They would have to be supportive in some way if you knees didn’t get sore! (and remember, I would actually want them, but it’s an either/or deal for me….either ALL gear or none allowed and since we lean toward none, then none it my vote…I’m like Lawrence Taylor, I don’t do anything half way!). Also, have you ever been spotting someone on the bench with a huge weight and they get stuck and the slightest touch of the bar gets them going? Just that slight amount of support in the sleeves could make a big difference. But that’s my opinion.

Now, if you tell me they keep your knees warm and thats why they help, I’ll buy that. But couldn’t one just slide them off, do the lift, and put them back on if that’s the benefit?

Another thing I could buy is that it’s mental….I’m as a big a head case as they come.

Finally, I got one that hasn’t been brought up yet. Say, we allow knee sleeves and I go out and buy an XXS sleeve and squeeze it on….then what? Somebody will use that rule to their advantage. Supposedly that’s what the Oly lifters started doing when they allowed them the sleeves. XXS sleeves outsell all other sizes by a wide margin….I wonder why?

Again, this is in the spirit of debate, don’t go all “Obama/Romney” on me! I think Al likes to get us going to spur interest in the website! He’s kind of the USAWA version of Conrad Dobler….and if don’t know who that is, look it up!

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Scott Tully]

lean toward none? the fed already allows wrist wraps for any lift you want, and knee wraps for a few others,and a belt for anything.

ST

[Anonymous]

I probably could slide them off and do the lift, sure. I can also agree about the mental part of it. I could see people buying smaller sizes, but I really don’t see how it could help that much. They are still nothing compared to knee wraps. What I find wierd is how you can wear knee wraps on the front squat, 12″ base squat, and the Anderson squat but you can’t wear sleeves. I prefer sleeves neoprene or cloth as knee wraps tend to screw up my kneecap if I do them wrong. Now here is one for you guys, I don’t know if anyone noticed, and I have no problem with it. But Wilbur had knee sleeves at the Dino Record days back in Feb. If you ask me he is a pretty smart guy, and something tells me those sleeves didn’t help him.

Jesse

[Anonymous]

I also wanted to add,the sleeves Wilbur wore are the exact kind I wear, the open patella helps keep the kneecap in place.

[Anonymous]

And yes I know as long as you have medical proof that the sleeves are necessary it is ok then.

Also I totally understand the stand on equipment, I would never want to see bench shirts, squat suits and or briefs in the USAWA.

Jesse

[Scott Tully]

it is OK with medical proof? I have almost no cartilage left,my Doc will say I need them no problem. I did not know this was a option.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I believe there is a difference between support gear and lifting geared. And it may be a fine line that is difficult to identify. However, with the knee wraps, we have alreadycrossed the line into lifting geared, as knee wraps add poundages.

I like the idea of just pulling them off before you lift. That makes more sense in theory than practice though, in my opinion. Because according to our rules, we cannot just pull them down and wear them around uour ankles, yes? Even though that would obviously offer absolutely no aid or support, it would be against the rules. So, you would have to take them off. I cant pull mine over my showes, so I would have to take off my shoes, take off the sleeve, put the shoes back on, lift, take the shoe back off, put the sleeve back on, put the shoe back on, etc, etc, etc. It is a big enough pain in the ass leaning over once in the morning to get my shoes on once.

That being said, I am going for the doctor’s note thing. I’m sure that will be tough to get (LOL)

ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I definitely understand the concern of “opening Pandora’s Box” and definitely dont want the org to go to the dark side, where bench shirts and squat suits are the norm and every lifter is dirty. Like I said, the line may be fine, and we should be careful that we dont cross it.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Comparing me to Conrad Dobler??? haha and yes I’m old enough to know who he is!

This rule states:

VI. Equipment

8. Braces or supports on any part of the body are not allowed. This would include neoprene elbow and knee sleeves. An exception to this rule may be made by the officials if the lifter has proof that it is medically necessary.

That is a pretty vague rule which has always given us some lee-way on this issue. I made that decision on Wilbur after looking at his 12″ scar on his knee (and WHO is going to tell an all-time great like him that he can’t wear them???)

And I might add, his knee sleeves are NOTHING like what any of you wear. They looked completely worn out and probably are older than any lifter under 40!!! Al

[Thom Van Vleck]

Fellas…..take it easy! This is why I don’t like to get too involved in the “politics” of the USAWA…..I get the feeling I offend people and in turn sometimes feel offended….I just want to lift and have fun and keep all my friends in the process (and Tully from putting an arm bar on me the next time I come to Salina ’cause I know he thinks I’m a jerk and Al keeps telling him made up stuff I’m saying to get him going).

Many years ago I wrote Bill Clark a satirical letter on his stubborness regarding supportive gear. I proposed that the USAWA start lifting like the ancient Greeks….Totally NAKED (GAWD….that would scare the crap out some people). I went on to say that being naked would ensure that no support was given as even a JOCK STRAP might give undue aid!

I think if you are going to be an “ungeared” group then when you start putting in knee wraps here, wrist wraps here, etc. etc. you run into nightmares with record keeping which I do for the Scottish Masters stuff.

Then there’s making medical exceptions for injuries, for HRT (TRT), and on and on and on. I don’t envy the USAWA board in their handling of these decisions. When I ran for political office I learned why politicians don’t just come out and say where they stand on issue. Because as soon as you do, half the people get pissed and refuse to vote for you, then you make another statement, and another half drop you……why, because I think it’s in our nature to be divisive. We have to work at working together. I can see us making a decision on this and no matter what is decided some guy will get made and refuse to life in the USAWA ever again. I just see it as easier to say “no gear” and you know what you are getting in to.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

I want to make another point.

The argument of saying the USAWA already allows kneewraps (for front sq, 12″ base sq and Anderson Sq), wrist wraps, and belts have set the precident that supportive gear is allowed now as a means of justifying MORE supportive gear does not “fly” in my book. In this argument, one thing will just lead to another, meaning it creates a prior precident “reasoning” that will justify support for the next. What’s next? Elbow sleeves? Supportive neoprene shorts? Afterall, those can easily be justified as well. Afterall, who doesn’t have elbow and hip issues???

I remember the meeting when the ruling was made on knee wraps for the front squat and 12″ base squat. It was a “hotly” debated issue at the meeting, but finally agreement was made when it was decided “THIS WILL BE IT! NO MORE EQUIPMENT.”

Apparently not – because now that vote has set precident for the next issue, ie knee sleeves. Al

[Anonymous]

Thom no offense taking at all. I was just giving my retort.

I find all this banter and debating fun.

Jesse

[Al Myers]

Totally agree! I also know that all of us (meaning those that are posting on this topic) were to gather in a bar with a few pitchers of beer, we would be in an unanimous agreement to a solution in under 5 minutes!!

But I like to continue to “stir the pot”, so now guess how many pictures of lifters wearing knee sleeves in official competitions that are illustrated in the Rulebook? And I will point out that all these pictures were taken “before our time”. Add in the numerous pictures of lifters wearing sweatpants (which could be covering up anything), and it’s not too hard to realize that this issue (knee sleeves) has been going on for some time in the USAWA “under the radar”.

These rulebook pictures sorta sends “mixed signals” if you ask me. Al

[KCSTRONGMAN]

The argument of saying the USAWA already allows kneewraps (for front sq, 12? base sq and Anderson Sq), wrist wraps, and belts have set the precident that supportive gear is allowed now as a means of justifying MORE supportive gear does not “fly” in my book

I agree entirely. I was not bringing up kneewraps to justify bringing in more. I was trying to make a distiction between gear that supports (wristwraps, knee sleeves) and gear that aids (knee wraps, bench shirts) and that if we allow any sort of gear that aids (and we do) it seems silly not to allow something that supports. I would be in favor of replacing knee wraps with knee sleeves for just that reason. I would have been interested in hearing the selling points of bringing knee wraps in in the first place. (Not to say I dont use them, cause I do when they are allowed)

Anyway, just for the record, I am not mad at anybody, and if we choose not to allow sleeves, I will continue to lift in the USAWA.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Comparing me to Conrad Dobler??? haha and yes I’m old enough to know who he is!

I guess I am not-I had to look it up! LOL
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[0722143772]

I HAVE SIT BACK AND READ ALL THIS DISCUSSION AND WAS GOING TO REPLY MANY TIMES. I HAVE NOT, HOWEVER, DUE TO THE FACT THAT I AM NOT A SMART MAN AND I WOULD NOT REALLY ADD ANYTHING PERTINENT.

I CAN’T ANYMORE…..

WHEN TULLY AND DARREN APPROACHED ME IN VEGAS TO ASK FOR MY SUPPORT FOR THIS, I WAS ALL FOR IT. UPON REFLECTION, I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. THE FACT THAT THERE ARE THREE LIFTS THAT ALLOW ‘WRAPS’ JUST CLOUDS THE ISSUE. I REALLY DON’T KNOW WHY THAT WAS PASSED TO BEGIN WITH!! WRAPS ARE WRAPS!! DO THEY HELP. CHRIST. YES!! DO ‘SLEEVES’ AID? POSSIBLY(IN MY OPINION, IN WHICH I AM ENTITLED).

YEARS AGO, DRAG RACING HAD ‘RUN WHAT YA BRUNG’ DAYS. GUYS WOULD BRING THEIR ‘VETTES/409s/HEMIS/ MUSTANGS/ WHATEVER….THE FAMILY IN TOW, OPEN THE HEADERS OR DUMPS AND GOT WITH IT. BEST MAN WON!!!!

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO JUST STAND OUT THERE WITH WHAT THE GODS GAVE YOU AND ‘RUN WHAT YA BRUNG’!!??

[Tedd Van Vleck]

WOW! This has been the most interesting thread I have read on this site.

My opinion is that nothing should be allowed, period. I am sure there is a story why wraps are allowed on those couple of events but if you allow this now, then eventually an argument will come up to allow something else, then something else, etc. What I have liked about this group is that it is a true “raw” lifting organization. As Rainbow Bend says…..you run with what you brung.

I completely understand everyones point on here and there isn’t an option that would make everyone happy but what has brought this organization this far appears to have attracted all of us to this sport, so I am not sure why we have to go changing things now.

When I first started in the Highland Games and HASA, the reason I started throwing wasn’t for the sport. It was for the guys IN the sport. I had so much fun road tripping to all the back yard games, laughing at the McAllister brothers, and usually the stories about the road trip, the hotel or the night out before or after are the memories that I still have today.

Then the sport started to grow and politics got involved, everyone was complaining about the spin or back yard games, or the slope of the field, etc. Just shut up and throw! If you want to throw down a hill and feel good about throwing a weight farther than you truly can…..then go to the games that has the hill to throw down. Problem solved.

So my feeling on this question is, if you want to wear gear, lift in an organization that has gear. There are plenty out there. The fun about the USAWA is hearing the stories told by Dave or Thom, laughing at the size of Al’s LITTLE Green Egg and the fellowship that comes from attending these games or the road trip it takes to get to a meet or the dinner before or after the meet. Its not about getting something added so we can lift 10 more lbs.

[Al Myers]

Great points Z!!

There are so many great things about the USAWA. We are fortunate to be a small organization, so most everyone knows everyone and great friendships can be made. It reminds me very much of the early days (over 20 years ago) in the Highland Games. The same dozen throwers showed up at every regional games and we had fun. Back then the number of games were very scarce, so when there was a games everyone attended. I remember throwing before there were even organized rules – you played by the rules of the AD for the day, and NOBODY cared about it! That’s just the way it was. Then along came “governing bodies”, record lists, ranking lists, etc and it never was the same.

But Z man – you have me confused on the vote you cast? You negated big brothers vote by yours – but your feelings seem to reflect the opposite??? Are you in a state of mental confusion??? Dinoman

[Scott Tully]

By the way,I want clarification. If a doctor says I need to wear knee sleeves can I wear them, I like Wilbur, Hes one of my idols, but he was wearing the same 5-6MM neoprene sleeve that I wear,and they provide more heat and are thicker than the woven ones you train in Al.and legend or not the rules should be the same for everyone. Also alot of guys voting know are putting less than 100lbs overhead and cant squat much over 100-200lbs, while i have the utmost respect for them still competing, its different than those of us who put over 300lbs overhead, ad squat 500-600lbs or more. Have fun flaming me after this one, lol.

ST

[Ben Edwards]

I voted NO on the knee sleeves poll. I personally don’t think weightlifting belts should be allowed in USAWA comps. Just to keep the org truly “raw.”

Admittedly, I’m not what anyone here in this conversation would consider a “lifter.” So I don’t have personal experience with supportive and/or protective gear – with the exception of a lifting belt that I wear ocof

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Tedd Van Vleck]

Al,

My vote is NO for knee sleeves.

[Ben Edwards]

Got cut off because I’m typing on my phone.

I also told Al that for me it’s also about appearances. How does it look to an observer?

I trust the lifters here who say the knee sleeves don’t give them a poundage edge. But they give the appearance of being an outside aid to the lifter. When you’re not wearing them nobody can comment that you might be getting 10 to 20lbs more by wearing them.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Scott Tully]

so do the wrist wraps that can be worn for every lift, i hope all who vote no quit wearing those also.

[Ben Edwards]

Totally agree with this Scott. I work with a guy who tells me he gets 10lbs at least out of wrist wraps and more if he’s nursing injuries.

https://goalorientedtraining.wordpress.com/

[Al Myers]

I’m glad to see this healthy discussion on knee sleeves!

NOWHERE in the current rules does it say if you have a doctor’s note you will be allowed to wear them. This is not highschool gym class!! The rules, as written, say “an exception may be made by the officials if the lifter has proof that it is is medically necessary”. The decision of “the proof” is left to the meet director, and it’s the meet directors call only. That’s the way it always has been, and there has been NUMEROUS times throughout the history of the USAWA where knee sleeves have been allowed by meet directors in competition for lifters they felt really needed them. I got many old meet videos and pictures to prove this – but I won’t go that far (and even pictures of a few lifters in MY MEETS, besides Wilbur, where I have allowed it on occassion, hic hic, You know who you are). And according to the USAWA rules -that has not been a violation.

Now Professor – I’m glad to see that you have such high ethical standards that you think everyone should shun wrist wraps if they are against knee sleeves. That’s a righteousness point of view. But what you say doesn’t make any sense to me on this point. I may think wrist wraps shouldn’t be allowed in the USAWA, but if they are legal and I wear them, does that mean I’m in favor of them? Or is it that I’m just “playing by the rules” and getting the advantage out of them like the rest of the competition is? But then that must seem to you that I’m being hypocritical. Hmmmm…..

[Scott Tully]

Al,

my comment is to the guys who are trashing knee sleeves, and then also saying that no gear should be allowed, but then go and wear wrist wraps, which to me are much more supportive. Ill admit that I have worn sleeves in USAWA comps, mostly because I forgot they were on, hell I wear them to bed, lol. But the last several times I have competed I have taken them off, mainly outta respect for you,I don’t want you getting crapped on because your training partner wore those ridiculously thick mega supportive sleeves, lol. If I can wear them in the Strongman nats that Thom is putting on with a doctors note i will compete, if not there is no way in hell Ill do that meet, its not worth it to me, and as always Ill continue to be a member and support the comp like i always have either way.

ST

[Scott Tully]

and just so you know, Im in favor of wrist wraps, knee wraps, knee and elbow sleeves(that are within agreed upon guidelines) and belts. I agree no suits or bench shirts.

ST

[Anonymous]

I’m glad I was able to stir the pot a little. And I misinterpreted what I read in the rules, my apologies for that. Big question here for those that voted no, have you ever tried neoprene sleeves?

[Al Myers]

Ok guys – what about compression shorts??

Is that the next item to be considered “on our way” to a full geared organization?? Or is that where “the line” is drawn?? Dinoman

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I would draw it somewhere before knee wraps (LOL)
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

So Al what you are saying is you consider neoprene to be the same as a squat suit? I am amazed at how much conflict this vote has caused, I will still lift at USAWA meets no matter what, but I don’t ever want to be at one of these meetings if this is the kind of crap storm that happens over something so small. I have a 10 year old squat suit that is 3 sizes to big and it still gives me poundages on my squat, but I could wear a pair of compression shorts 3 sizes to small and I don’t think I would get a damn thing out of it. Same with my neoprene sleeves. And I have asked this question before but never got an answer, so why is it knee wraps are allowed on the 3 lifts that they are allowed on, and I think we can all agree that if used right they definately help, but you are not allowed to wear some neoprene sleeves that only aid in comfort and warmth and not give you any help, or even if they did not near as much as knee wraps. I ask this as I hate wearing knee wraps, they always screw my knee cap up, but I like wearing open patella knee sleeves to keep the knee cap in place.

[Scott Tully]

Can we wear stocking caps on the platform, I dont care about being strong anymore, I jsut want to look awsome.

ST

[Thom Van Vleck]

Jesse: I have been following “odd lifting” since I was a kid reading my Uncle’s Newsletters from Bill Clark even BEFORE the USAWA existed….the conflicts have ALWAYS been there and always will. The main difference is Al doesn’t edit out everyone that disagrees with him. (That is not intended as a slam on anyone….hell….I ALWAYS tell my wife the truth in regards to how I handle our finances and one day she said to me, “Sometimes I wish you would just what needs to be done and not tell me…I don’t want to worry about it”.)

Scott: I have a set of your knee sleeves….I LOVE THEM and actually agree with you on using all that other stuff with limitations….it’s just an all or nothing deal and right now we are a nothing organization….HAHA…that didn’t sound right! Also, Scott…..I like to wear a stocking cap to keep my brain warmed up so I don’t hurt it writing these posts.

Way to go Conrad….errrr…Al! HAHAHAH

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

Vote at this point with the Sept 1st deadline approaching fast:

FOR 15
AGAINST 16

I’ll answer those post questions when I get more time later. But I got to ask – does anyone REALLY KNOW how I will vote on this issue?? Dinoman

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I am going to start wearing really tight jean shorts, cut at leat 4″ above the knee to remain legal, but I bet I’ll get a pound or two out of them on squatting events, and I will look even cooler than Professor Tully with his beanie on.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Lance Foster]

[b]Quote from KCSTRONGMAN on August 22, 2012, 10:34[/b]
I am going to start wearing really tight jean shorts…ET

TMI! 🙂

The Gloved One

[Scott Tully]

Scott: I have a set of your knee sleeves….I LOVE THEM and actually agree with you on using all that other stuff with limitations….it’s just an all or nothing deal and right now we are a nothing organization…

Thom,

To quote you how are we a all or nothing fed? You must know better than this, as I have see you wear both a belt and wrist wraps before.

also I asked a question above, If I come to the old time strongman comp with a Drs. note will I be allowed to wear my knee sleeves, or because Im not someones idol or a legend of odd lifting will I be turned down?

ST

[Scott Tully]

also neoprene shorts have been allowed at meets before, the all around nats hosted in Salina a few years ago had a lifter wear them,and Bill was present,I know cause I set next to him all day.

ST

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Okay, for the sake of arguement, are neoprene shorts illegal according to our rules as long as they are not too long? HEre is how the rules read, regarding shorts:

2. The lifting uniform may be a one piece suit or it may consist of shorts and a shirt. The lifting uniform must not provide any support that would aid in lifting.

4. Lower body must be covered by a one piece suit or shorts. No sweat pants are allowed. The suit or shorts must not extend lower than the base of the quadriceps muscle. An undergarment is allowed to be worn under the suit or shorts, but must not provide any support that would aid in lifting.

So I have worn neoprene shots for a couple years, mostly in the winter out in the building for SM training. They do a great job keeping my hips and upper legs warm, and my balls sweaty, but certainly do not add a pound. So I would say they dont aid in lifting. So according to our rules, these would be allowable?
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Let’s keep this a rolling…

casinoman, I did not ever say neoprene shorts provides the same type of “supportive aid” as a squat suit (I checked back in my previous posts to make sure). But that’s assuming a good squat suit is worn – I often wear one in training that is so old and worn out (over 10 years) and way too big (got it when I weighed 300#), that I don’t feel it aids my lifts at all. But here comes the rub in which there is disagreement as KC pointed out:

The rules say: “the lifting uniform may be a one piece suit or it may consist of shorts and a shirt. The lifting uniform must not provide any support that would aid in lifting”.

This rule definitely implies “lifting uniform” as a one piece suit OR shorts and shirt. Now while some would argue that neoprene shorts are nonsupportive – there are others who would say they ARE supportive in aiding a lift. That’s a debateable point if you ask me (but my opinion is the same as yours, that they aren’t supportive). The thoughts of the “previous administration” felt they were supportive and not allowable. But as the wise professor pointed out – they have at times been allowed in the past, even at big National Meets. (Mostly because they were hidden under shorts and the boss didn’t know).

Now back to the knee wrap issue and a little history lesson. Back at the IAWA Worlds in 1997 in PA, the membership voted to allow knee wraps for the squat (12″ base and front squat). It caused great “uprising” in which some members walked out of the meeting. Since that time all of the IAWA membership have been using them for those two lifts. In the time between then and the 2010 meeting, some USAWA members had thought they were allowed, while others didn’t. The passing of allowing knee wraps for these two lifts at the 2010 meeting was done mainly because they had been used for over 10 years by some members and records were already established with them. Most of the USAWA members in attendance at that meeting were against knee wraps, but understood that the “train had already left the depot” on the issue, and unless you were going to wipe the records list clean and start over, you had to “go along” with a issue that had already been voted on and passed years ago. Dinoman

[Al Myers]

Just had a “swing vote” come in:

For 14
Against 17

That’s still only 31 votes out of close to a hundred membership. Lots of time yet for things to change!!

[Anonymous]

This is a little off topic, but reading what ET quoted from the rule book about the uniform, why do your shorts have the be a certain length? I’m not sure I own a pair of shorts that doesn’t extend past the bottom of my quad a little. I even think that the singlet I have my be too long according to that rule. Does having shorts that are knee length really give you an advantage?

I guess that could just be along the same lines as a beanie or tight jean shorts of just making you look so cool that it is an advantage.

Tank tops are kind of in the same boat. Does not wearing sleeves give you a lifting advantage? If not, then why can’t you wear a tank top in a USAWA competition?

[Al Myers]

The answer to the first part of your question (shorts longer than the base of the quadriceps) is easier than the second. The reason is because long shorts may interfere with judging decisions, ie Are the legs straight? Is the squat depth adequate? etc.

The tank top violation is confusing to me as well. It is an old rule, and I would guess it was put into the rules as part of the dress code policy, ie the same reason the professor can’t wear his beanie in competition as it might appear to the viewing public that he is just another dumb meathead, thus not the image the USAWA wants to promote (LOL). But I’ve always argued that you can go without a shirt if you wear a singlet??? That doesn’t make sense if tank tops aren’t allowed. But the good news is shirts with cut-off sleeves is NO PROBLEM!!!

And bbenzel – get a nickname for this forum or I’ll give you one and you might not like it!! haha Dinoman

[Al Myers]

Since Big T brought up Bill Clark and the ole Strength Journal, I think it is “only right” that Bill gets a say in this discussion since he is not on the forum. So I’m going to share a little “tidbit” he had to say about wraps from many years back. I doubt his opinion has changed since!!! His viewpoint should be respected since he is THE ONE who started both the USAWA and the IAWA, and considered our founding father. Here it is (from Bill Clark):

WRAPS – The IAWA started out as a pure group… pure in drug practice, pure in mechanical aids(no supportive gear). Hopefully, we’re still drug-free, though I’d bet against it. Obviously, we’re no longer willing to match muscle against weight. Belts have always been allowed (though this person has always voted against them and will always refuse to wear one in any kind of lift). Then came a plea to allow protective wrist wraps where back hang is a factor (the swings). OK! Now all lifts can use wrist wraps. Why? What’s next – knee wraps? Bed sheets around the waist like the old days of powerlifting? Wraps are pure bullshit! Belts are bullshit too….but wraps are PURE BULLSHIT!!!! Don’t tell me about safety. Don’t tell me about the need for belts – other than in your mind. The arguments don’t fly. Wraps support your ego. We started out more interested in your strength than your damned ego.

[Chad Ullom]

Always been the problem with bill. You never are really sure where he stands. Hahahahaha

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I severely herniated my back when I stopped using a belt for a period. Now, I know my form was for crap, but it was when I dropped the belt that I sustained a serious injury, one that I have to work around 7 years later. I also believe that this varies from individual to individual, so saying that they are crap in a blanket statement is crap. I dont fashion myself a pussy (and would be glad to go fist-to-cuffs with anyone who did), but I will never lift without a belt again, and will at least train in knee sleeves at times when I think they will protect my joint to continue fighting another day. Some people may lift a boat load and never need sleeve, belts, or wrist wraps to stay healthy. Some may argue against them because they have never lifted heavy and dont have to worry about it. And some may need them at times to stay healthy. So the blanket statement is innaccurate. Now, I know for the rule purpose, we have to go one way or the other. I hope either way we dont have people leaving the org over it. I know I wont.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

ok sir Dino, but again I ask why can’t a person where knee sleeves instead of knee wraps for the 12″ base squat and front squat? I understand the point that knee sleeves are not allowed per the rules, but as far as these lifts are concerned what is the difference.

Jesse

[tgoetsch]

First, I have really appreciated the discussion on this topic! Seems to me like the major rub here is that the USAWA was fashioned as an all-out RAW lifting organization. As Thom put it, a “nothing” organization. Over the years, it has morphed into a “sometimes” or “for these certain lifts but no others” or “at the meet director’s discretion” organization. I don’t think knee sleeves are going to open any kind of Pandora’s box of supportive lifting equipment, rather, that box was opened many years ago. Can it ever be shut? Should it?
Second, Bryan, no one would be at an advantage if you wore less clothing on the platform, aside from a bulimic who just chased a “six-pack-and-pound” with a double cheeseburger and chocolate milk.
Third, I realize that was an insult and against the results of this forum, so I retract my previous statement.

[Al Myers]

casinoman – good point, I agree if knee wraps are allowed for a lift then knee sleeves should be allowed as well as they are indeed less supportive. However, that is not how the rule is written so knee sleeves are not allowed in the 12″ base squat and front squat, just knee wraps.

I gotta wonder though – how many of those in favor of knee sleeves are also in favor of elbow sleeves? I know the professor is in favor of this, but are others? Dinoman

[Anonymous]

Honestly I don’t care about elbow sleeves, only time I have used them is for log pressing, my arms get too bunched up on an axle or barbell when I have them on. But I do use them in training for strict pressing.

I really think that some thought should go into allowing the sleeves where wraps are allowed.

[Anonymous]

I guess I’ll just run with the name you already gave me Al, if I have to have a nick name.

I agree with Jesse that it’s a little silly that you can use knee wraps but not sleeves on certain lifts.

Thanks for the clarification about the shorts Al. I could see someone not liking longer shorts if they interfered with judging, but has anyone ever been told to change them because they were too long? I could see if they were really long, but if they are just standard athletic shorts is it really much of issue?

I honestly cant believe that something as simple as knee sleeves is this controversial and polarizing in this organization. I understand it was meant to be a raw federation, but that was thrown out a long time ago when other supportive gear was allowed. I also think it’s a long stretch to say allowing knee sleeves is going to lead to allowing all supportive gear.

[Scott Tully]

leave it up to another superheavy under the age of 40 to finally understand it.

if I keep posting I should quickly become the #1 ahole. Sorry Thom you better work harder for that, cause theres a new sheriff in town.

ST

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I just hope you dont throat punch anybody
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Dale Friesz]

AL – NO – NO – NO!!!!!!!!! – Dale –

[Scott Tully]

Dale,

How do you really feel?

Al, YES YES YES!!

ST

[Anonymous]

This is not meant to offend anyone (which just by saying that means I know it’s going to), but it almost seems like this is a young(er) guys vs. old(er) guys argument. I could see a few reasons why.

First, the old guard who have been involved in the USAWA for a long time might just not like change (most likely reason if you ask me), or might see this as fundamentally changing the rules of the USAWA. Like I’ve already said, the rules allow other things that are a whole lot more supportive than knee sleeves.

Second, old(er) guys might not be concerned with the rule because they know that they will probably be allowed to wear them if they choose to. (Even though most that are against using them probably wouldn’t try.)

Last, if you are still involved in any kind of competitive lifting after 25 or 30+ years you have probably stayed fairly healthy for your career. Young(er) guys on the other hand have a whole lifting career to look forward to and would rather prevent injuries now then deal with healing later. If knee sleeves can provide any sort of injury prevention, I’m going to wear them.

[Thom Van Vleck]

DANG IT TULLY….I worked hard for that!

I the point is that we should either be a raw organization of not and if not then where do we draw the line. Because really, how can knee wraps really make a difference….and a wider belt if we already have a belt, or…..it just never ends and becomes more and more dividing. Like it is now. I got involved in politics a few years ago and figured out why politicians remain vague on where they stand with the issue.

How it works. You pick A over B. I don’t pick, but say something positive about both. Now the “B” folks hate me but are just mad at you for not making a pick. The A folks love you. Now, half the A folks like C and half the B’s like D. You Pick C over D. I don’t pick and again just say something positive. Now half the A folks hate you, but are just mad at me. The other half still love you but now that’s just a quarter of the voters. Election time comes. All people remember is what you DIDN’T pick and they all vote for me because I said something positive even though I never stood up for a DAMN THING. I see that in organizations like this. You try and make a rule and people focus on what they didn’t get, say “Screw this” and leave. That’s why we have such a small membership. We stood up for what we believed in!

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I am thinking of branching off and starting the USAWF and everything goes: wraps, sleeves, denim bench shirts, belts, quadruple ply Squat and DL suits, drugs, 48 hour weigh ins, beanies, jeans, Cannibal Corpse songs playing on level 11 on teh stereo, coking up before attempts. I might see if the “other” british all-round faction will join us to form an international organization.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Geez bigt that sounded like a politicalian I didn’t understand a word of it. And KC I know u r just kidding because u previously said the line should b drawn at knee wraps hhaha. Excuse my typing as I’m sitting at the airport and this keypad on the iPad is really way to tiny for my fat fingers However this issue will b decided by the meeting of the minds at Denny’s this weekend Lol

[Scott Tully]

Thom, you still did not answer my question.

If I show up at the old time strongman comp with a docs note saying its medically necessary for me to wear them can I?

ST

[tgoetsch]

If wrist wraps, knee wraps (for certain lifts), a belt, and meet director’s discretion are allowed, it’s really not a truly “raw” organization anymore. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

I think Jesse nailed it right on the head. Maybe knee sleeves should be considered where a knee wrap is allowed, at the very least. It surprises me that the move was made to allow wraps rather than sleeves in the first place, but maybe there’s a little history to that decision that I am missing. If a move for knee sleeves is struck down, I would really be surprised if some of those voting against them here didn’t advocate to get rid of the rule allowing knee wraps.

[Tedd Van Vleck]

Thom,

Could you answer Tully’s question.

Thanks,
Management

[Lance Foster]

[b]Quote from KCSTRONGMAN on August 24, 2012, 12:23[/b]
I am thinking of branching off and starting the USAWF and everything goes: wraps, sleeves, denim bench shirts, belts, quadruple ply Squat and DL suits, drugs, 48 hour weigh ins, beanies, jeans, Cannibal Corpse songs playing on level 11 on teh stereo, coking up before attempts. I might see if the “other” british all-round faction will join us to form an international organization.
ET

I’m down.with.all that, as long as it allows me to go 350 + on the Jefferson and actually do a Steinborn!! lol

The Gloved One

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Hey-
If we are thinking about takinga hard stance on going with what God gave you will it apply to prosthetics as well? What about replaced joints?
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Scott Tully]

ET,

Next year Im going to ask them to approve Wet suits, and duck tape. that way I can be extra warm in all areas, and I can just tape my joints in place. I figured if knee sleeves made this big of a splash, what would a 7mm wet suit cause, lol.

ST

[Al Myers]

Professor, no one is going to respond to any of your questions anymore out of fear……

[Thom Van Vleck]

Tully, I’m sorry I got extremely bored with Al’s attempts to get a post to have over 1000 views that I lost interest in this Horse beat down of epic proportions.

As for the answer, you will have to run that by the head judge at my meet. His name is Al Myers. HAHAHAHAHA

Now, Scott….if it were up to me we’d be wearing supersuits, knee wraps, wrist wraps and everyone that was there would be smart enough to know when to “reel it back” without someone pointing out that wrapping yourself in bed sheets might be over the top. But everyone has an opinion of what over the top is.

This WHOLE deal is why I have a problem with ANY organization and politics in general. Nobody wants to focus on the positives, they just want to pick one issue and then beat the living hell out of it until everyone is pissed off and either quits or it ends up being a life time grudge match that does nothing but spew anger, hatred, insults and behind the back comments like when this organization was run by someone previously (who I actually have a lot of respect for regarding what they did in the PAST). There, I said it. Geezus. I just want to lift and have fun but I have a problem keeping my mouth shut when I see a few guys bullying the many around and getting their way because they make the most noise. I’m ready to yank my USAWA meet status for the OTSM and go back to my old school, “here’s what I’m doing and if you don’t like it don’t come to the meet” method. The amount of work I’ve already done on this meet and the amount of work it will create for me during and after and the out of pocket I will likely be because I’ve made this a fundraiser makes me question my sanity. Now you know why I quit responding, I think of all you guys as my friends and this stuff is just divisive.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Dale Friesz]

FOR ANYONE WHO WOULD EVEN SUGGEST THAT A TOTAL JOINT REPLACEMENT OR A FALSE LEG WOULD BE AN ASSIST IN INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT THAT CAN BE LIFTED I WOULD GLADLY TRADE ALL MY FALSE BODY PAERTS WITH YOU. I WOULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT YOU DO SOME RESEARCH BECAUSE NONE OF THESE ITEMS ARE SUPPOSE TO DO ANYTHING BUT ALLOW YOU TO FUNCTION IN A SOMEWHAT NORMAL DAILY BASIS! OF COURSE IF YOU HAVE LOTS OF DOLLARS TO SPEND
TO SPEND I WILL GLADLY BE A RESEARCH VOLUNTER. – DALE –

I STILL VOTE NO – N0 -N0!!!!!!!

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Make no mistake about it, I would never say that a prosthesis or replaced joint is an advantage over what someone was able to do before they because disadvantaged in a fashion that made them decide to get the prosthesis or replaced joint. But it is certainly an advantage over what they were capable of at the point when their body dictated that they should go that route. Otherwise, why do it? If my knees become such at a later point that I have trouble walking around, let alone lifting, getting a new knee is an advantage over that. Anyhow, that being said, I would never say someone should be discriminated against because of a prosthetic appendage or a replaced joint. My point was that if we are taking the stance of “go with what God gave you” then, by definition, these items would be disallowable.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Thom, I certainly hope this isnt devisive. I hope no one has taken offense to anything I have said, or has taken it as bullying. I just enjoy the discussion, and occasionally playing devil’s advocate. I like to to think about some of these things, and in turn get others to think. I dont see anything wrong with that.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Scott Tully]

Thom,

Since I can not get a straight answer from anyone, and will not drive 6 hours and not be allowed to lift, then best of luck with the comp. A lot of these issues could be handled better if those in charge would take a stand on something, instead no one wants to hurt any ones feelings. When any of the newer lifters suggest something, the older members immediately shut it down, leave meetings, or find a way to shelf it. Al is one of my best friends and has worked his ass off to help grow all around, unfortunately if there is not any progression there will not be a organization in a few years. Also if were gonna take a hard stance, make the rules the same for everyone, regardless of age, legend of the sport, or head asshole like me. You guys might think its a badge of honor to have knee replacements, hip replacements, etc, I however do not and although I’m sure my knees will be done at some point, I would like to prolong that as long as possible. The most humorous part of this is that a lot are so against a piece of neoprene, yet a lifter was allowed to compete with MRSA at a comp recently and risk every ones health. By the way that will not happen at IAWA worlds, because regardless who is the meet director its being held at my gym, where I coach kids, and have members who will not be put at risk. I’m sure this will be deleted, but hopefully a few will see this. I will not bring up anything more on this subject on this forum, nor will I suggest things I think may help in the future.

ST

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of this talk has been taking out of context, I can’t lie I find some it ridiculous.

Thom, please do not stop your meet, I am very excited to do it with my daughter, granted I am only one person but I am looking forward to it.

Is there at least one thing we can agree upon, that it is really stupid that knee wraps are allowed on the 12″ base squat and front squat, but knee sleeves are not. If anything could at least be changed, allow sleeves on those lifts

I only lift in the USAWA as it allows me something I can do with my daughter, I don’t care about records, I wouldn’t mind some trophies(but that damn coefficent makes it tough, I need to get older:) )One thing I am gonna face is allowing knee sleeves is not gonna happen, will it stop me from lifting in certain meets, I am not sure, it might.

Jesse

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I enjoyed Mr Wagman’s article. I do agree about having to consider the type of sleeve. The two types I have used offered no spring (such as a knee wrap), but I suppose there could be some that do.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Chad Ullom]

Eric, to me that is the biggest issue. It’s not the knee wraps most people use, it’s what is out there or what is possible to do with them if they’re allowed. I also really appreciated all the research Dan did for that article. Very well written.

Jesse, I agree that is pretty insane and I don’t really know the reason. I think it was just presented that way and went through.

[Thom Van Vleck]

Tully, I don’t know what to say, well, I do but I’m not gonna because it isn’t pretty. You don’t want to come to my contest, then don’t come. Don’t blame me, I’m having a USAWA certified meet, take it to them. If you want to get on here and TELL PEOPLE that you are now NOT coming then I think I’m allowed a response.

You of all people, with all the meets you have run should understand that you don’t run down somebody else’s meet in public. I will not be bullied and you are a being a frickin’ bully about this. You have taken this from a healthy debate to you trying to shove your agenda down everyone’s throat and then being upset about it when you didn’t win….do you know how many lifts I proposed for the OTSM to have shot down…..at least two dozen….Al and I had it out, but we did it in private as it should have been. Guess what, I didn’t get my way and I accept that. When you are part of a group, that’s what happens. Otherwise, find a cave to live in or start your own dicatatorship.

What I WISH would have happened is that the knee sleeve issue would have been applied only to the OTSM putting the USAWA “OTSM” more in line with regular strongman and with the supportive gear I’m sure the old timers used in doing the lifts we do in their honor. Now that it has been brought to the point that we have polarized all those who would have been in favor of it, it will likely NEVER happen now. Gee, thanks, Tully.

I will have the meet and I have made a commitment to it being a USAWA meet…I keep my commitments. I was just blowing off some steam over the fact that why do I get slammed on this.

I now refuse to respond to any more posts on this thread so if anyone wants to send me an email with their “comments” then do it, as I won’t see it here.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I just wanted to say that, regardless of the outcome, I would like to thank Steve and Al for giving us the opportunity to have our say in this Deocratic process. I have participated in orgs before where teh athlete could say all they want, but they were not going to get a say. Definitely the way business should be conducted in my opinion. Thanks guys
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Author]

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