Masterful DL article !!

[John McKean]

Masterful DL article !!

[Thom Van Vleck]

Al, I appreciate this article more than you’ll know. I bought into the whole “Deadlifts will make you slow” argument and dropped them for Power cleans, snatches the last 10 years. Now, I’m deadlifting again and oddly enough, the two places I was sore after my first deadlift workout in 10 years….My chest and my upper calves! However, I still believe a good mix of exercises is best, but it was a MISTAKE on my part to ignore this lift totally. It is back in my ‘regular’ rotation!

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

Thanks John!! Your complement means alot to me – because I consider you one of the few experts on weightlifting.

And Thom – this article was for you after our discussion a few weeks ago concerning the deadlift. Like I said, my answer was too long to answer in an email so I wrote a story for you!!

And one more thing John – it about time for me to go on my annual “snaggin trip” and I’ll need all the back strength possible because this year I’m hoping to haul in an 80 pounder!!!! haha Al

[KCSTRONGMAN]

In the great words of Jon Pall Sigmarrson “there is no point in being alive if you cannot do the deadlift”.

Great article Al
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Steve Angell]

Your right about people doing dangerous exercises because they think they build more explosive power. I have not been able to Back Squat for years now because a Hammer throwing coach got me doing Jump squats to increase power for my Hammer Throwing, As i jumped up with 220kgs, i felt a squelch in my upper thoracic area. From that day my Powerlifting career ended, as i could no longer hold the bar powerlifting style without pain in my back. The silly thing about it looking back, is, i was twenty years old and 90kgs and had just pulled a 3+ times bodyweight Deadlift (280kgs) to break the British Jnr Deadlift record, and then straight off the back of it, broke my Athletics club Hammer Throwing record. If i was not explosive enough, i don’t know who would have been more explosive at that age and bodyweight.

Also the main exercise in Alison Felix training program before she became Olympic sprint champion was Trap Bar Deadlifts.

I may be considered biased because all my best ever lifts were deadlift type lifts, but in my humble opinion the deadlift is right at the top of the pile as the KING of lifts.

[Scott Tully]

I agree 100% on this article also Al, great job!!

ST

[Al Myers]

One thing I like about that picture was that my training partners at the time were behind me cheering me on – Mark and Bob, and barely visible behind these two big guys Chuck!

[Chad Ullom]

Very good article Al. I know I need to train my deadlift more. It’s never been a strength of mine for sure!
I saw Bob and Mark, but missed Chuck!

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, Al, I accept the challenge to debate you on this. 🙂

First, if I could only do one lift for the rest of my life, it would be the power clean and press, not the deadlift, as the latter doesn’t work pressing muscles. (I believe that Bob Hoffman also said that he would do the power clean and press as his one lift.)

Not everyone should do deadlifts, at least not “forever”. Individuals of course vary in general body structure, strength and attachments of tendons and ligaments, etc., so what is a relatively safe exercise for one person can be risky for someone else.

Let me cite Tom Stock as an example. He was Senior National champion in Olympic lifting in the 110+ kilo class in 1978, 1979, and 1980, and was a member of the 1980 Olympic Team, which of course did not compete. I saw him win his titles in 1979 and 1980.

He suffered a career-ending knee injury in international competition, attempting a heavy clean and jerk, which was 225 kilos (495 pounds), if I remember correctly. When his knee was later examined, it was determined that he was highly susceptible to the very serious injury that he suffered because of his knee structure. In other words, he was an accident waiting to happen.

I did a lot of pulling of all types when I was younger (snatch pulls, clean pulls, low pulls, plus snatches and cleans), with my “total tonnage” over a period of decades undoubtedly being a very big number. Then my back started acting up when I was in my early 50s.

I still do deadlifts (both knuckles forward, no straps, inside my power rack), but I just use very light weights (190 for 5 reps the other night), as there is absolutely no way I am going to lift anywhere near what I am capable of doing, as I know that would be very risky. I am just trying to maintain some muscle tone in my lower back, nothing more. (I also do other types of pulls.)

I am not the only person here who has had back problems for many years, but I will let “person X” raise his hand and tell his story if he so desires. 🙂

Proceed with caution on deadlifts, folks. Take it from someone who has lifted weights for over 52 years and has trained very hard for most of that time.

Tom

[chuck cookson]

Great Article Al! As I am a mediocre deadlifter myself I do believe this is a lift I will continue throughout my years of lifting….And standing behind Bob and Mark it was always easy to miss me! LOL

[Al Myers]

The Power Clean and Press is indeed a very fine lift. It works pretty much every muscle in the body. Tom – I will give you “the point” that this lift works the shoulders whereas the deadlift does not, but I totally disagree with you that the deadlift is a more dangerous lift than the Clean and Press, especially among older lifters. Now I’m not one to pick only “safe exercises” to train (because we as all-rounders do MANY lifts that others would think were very dangerous), but if the deadlift is trained with correct technique there is not really any way to sustain an injury due to sudden body movement or twisting (feet movement), or impact (bar coming to chest) like with the clean and press. Al

[Scott Tully]

100% agree, I have had back surgery and I was contemplating not Dling anymore, but have found by pulling heavy(for me) has helped strengthen my back to the point Im pulling bigger numbers that pre injury, my form is not as pretty as Al but has improved a ton since focusing on it, actually Wilbur Miller was the one to who told me if I wanted to rehab my back after I had surery I should DL, I agree with him 100%, he has been pulling impressive numbers for over 50 years and swears that the DL helped keep his back, which was severely injured when he was younger, strong and able to be active. The clean is a very violent movement and if not performed correctly can be very dangerous, as really any lift can be, but to say the DL is more dangerous than the clean? i will respectively disagree on that one, and I was a former oly lifter, albeit a crappy one, haha.

ST

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, Al and Scott, I don’t like to argue — and I rarely do – but you two are provoking me! LOL

Can we agree that Bill Starr, who of course has written for Milo for years and presumably still does, is one of the all-time leading weight training experts? His book, The Strongest Shall Survive: Strength Training for Football, published in 1976, has been very highly acclaimed. On page 79 he has a section entitled “Omit the Deadlift”. In that section he stated “Very few people, and this includes the top competitive weightlifters, keep a good back position on a heavy dead lift.” (I agree with that statement.) Later in that short section he stated “If the danger is higher than the benefits, I discourage the exercise. So it is with the dead lift.”

Although Starr was primarily an Olympic lifter during his competitive days, he also competed in powerlifting and set a national deadlift record of 666 in the 198-lb. class at the 1968 Senior National Powerlifting Championships, so he wasn’t a stranger to the lift.

I can vouch for the danger of which Starr wrote because in 1974 I apparently subluxated my back. (No, I didn’t see a doctor but my stepfather attended medical school for a while.) 🙂

I was doing low pulls with 540 or so for 3 reps (actual weight estimate; most of my heavy plates weigh heavy). This was well below what I had used in that exercise a few months earlier and was not a weight that should have caused any trouble. But I heard and felt a loud crack in my back, followed by intense pain for 20 minutes or so, regardless of the position that I assumed, as neither lying down, sitting down, nor standing up helped at all. I recovered but had to take it easy with training for a week or two.

I was just reading about subluxation degeneration on the Internet tonight, and perhaps this is what has affected my back for the past 15 years, with that 1974 mishap starting the whole thing. I really hadn’t thought of that possibility until tonight!

So I agree with Starr about danger versus benefits.

I must say that you guys have some “interesting” views about a clean. 🙂 A “very violent movement”, Scott? Come on. You meet the bar on a power clean; it doesn’t crash down on you. So there should hardly be any impact at all, Al.

I do agree with Wilbur Miller about doing deadlifts to rehab a back, as you want the muscles to become stronger and help protect the back, but certainly deadlifts in that case shouldn’t be performed with the same high intensity that would be necessary in training for an upcoming powerlifting competition. Moderation should be the key at that time.

Tom

[John McKean]

Might as well jump into the deadlift vs power/clean-press discussion!! As a famous Bulgarian weightlifting coach stated “the shoulders only have so many overhead lifts in them”, and had his very young world class lifters do mostly heavy singles. Now, speaking as a long time master’s age lifter, the press just doesn’t allow much poundage much past 55 (compared to younger days) due to injuries & pains. So as a longevity exercise it becomes rather insignificant, and the clean required to do these lightweight presses is basically effortless & worthless for promoting strength!On the other hand, deadlifts are always good to go, and if the regular version creates back stress, just shift to all-round deadlifts such as Jeffersons or Trap Bars.

From my experiences it’s usually the retired (due to blown out delts,knees, or backs!) Olympic lifters who yell about deadlifts, or other heavy all-round movements! I well remember one retired olympic lifter who complained about my sons,Frank’s,Art’s, and a couple of other families lifting in the all-rounds while under 16 years of age. This official petitioned to disallow teen all-rounds ,citing his own personal injury ,of some sort (probably an olympic lift movement, as he never actually competed in USAWA events) when he was 49 years of age (hmmm, maybe by then not quite as spry as a teen?!!!).

Another interesting story, since Bob Hoffman was brought up as favoring the clean & press. While giving Bob a car ride from the Erie airport to a meet, Bob himself told me in his younger days while competing in local meets or “picnic events” that he was always relegated to pressing on the” chicken—- platform”, which they apparently reserved for very low weight pressers (Bob claimed he made up for it in the jerk!)!! His articles on clean & press were mostly about trying to sell his 110# barbell sets, and doing his “daily dozen” with low weight!

[jarrod]

i learned a long time ago that if you ask 6 boxing coaches the correct way to do a jab, you’ll get 6 different answers. it looks like it’s the same with weightlifting too! (although i’m not sure why you’d ask a weightlifting coach how to jab, but anyway…)

my point is you can find experts of all opinions. i was reading an interview with a strength coach who advocated only pulling the deadlift just above your knees. others insist on full range of motion. some swear by it, others disregard it. in any case, our training is ultimately up to ourselves, that’s why i’m usually drawn to sports like this rather than team sports: at the end of the day you have to use what works for YOU.

jf

[Scott Tully]

by violent I mean all the motions the body goes through from start to finish, this term was actaully taken by me from listening to Dragomir Ciroslen(sp?). I also was a crasher when I oly lifted, lol. Jared is correct, everyone one of us has a different opinion, doenst make any of us right or wrong, we just have different opi’s. As far as starr being a expert, I think he knows alot of stuff about Wl’ing and Ill keep it there.

ST

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, John, now you are also disagreeing with me. No problem. 🙂

Of course lifters vary in terms of which body parts go first and which last the longest. You are doing very well at pulling at your “advanced age” (8 months younger than me), but others can still “push”. David Meltzer turns 59 this year. He c&jed 264 at the National Masters a few weeks ago, weighing 229. How much can he press? Almost certainly over 200. And several lifters in their 60s and 70s c&jed over 200, so they still have overhead strength.

Okay, back to deadlifts. If leg strength doesn’t keep up with back strength as a lifter ages (or at any time), then the lifter will likely not be able to maintain proper position during the pull. Then problems can ensue. I got away from deadlifts for a while a few years ago and did good mornings instead, but they can be risky also, even with knees bent. So I finally decided to return to deadlifts but to not do less than 5 reps. That way I am handling a weight that is much less than what I can do for a single and I will also be using less than what I am capable of using for 5 reps. Then my somewhat delicate back should be relatively safe, I hope.

Regarding Hoffman, he of course claimed to be the “world’s worst presser” and he attributed that to his poor pressing leverage. Regardless of what Hoffman was trying to sell, if a person wants an exercise that works as high a percentage of all the muscles as possible, it should be the clean and press.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Scott,

I think one of the problems with American lifters over the years is that they have been influenced by coaches who know less about weightlifting than what they and others may think they know. In 1967, Hoffman blamed Tony Garcy’s decline that year on the fact that he was listening to Sandor Gere. In particular, Garcy was doing squats early in the morning, before he went to work. Hoffman contended that the body is not fully awake at that time. Nobody considered Hoffman to be an expert on weightlifting, at least not the technical aspects of it, but he was on target with that statement.

About 40 years ago I read that the best time to train is 4-6 pm and indeed I probably did my best lifting during that time frame. Of course I haven’t always been able to train at that time, as nobody with a 9-5 job can do. But we can refrain from squatting early in the morning unless our time obligations are such that we don’t have any other choice.

About 20 years ago John Coffee showed me the squatting routine that Dragomir had his lifters doing and John remarked “That is a lot of squatting!”. Indeed it was. Too much.

Dragomir’s belief that power cleans (or just cleans) are violent because of all of the motions that the body goes through is “interesting”. I could say more, but I won’t. 🙂

Regarding Starr, I think he can be easily overlooked/underrated because of the way that HE has looked over the years. Some of us were standing around chatting at the AOBS dinner many years ago when Starr’s name came up. Joe Abbenda said “We can’t have everyone working on Wall Street!”. No, and if Starr showed up for a Wall Street interview looking as he does on page 205 of his book (with hair much longer than a woman’s hair), not only would Wall Street not hire him, but he might have trouble getting a job on just about any other street! LOL His life has at times been as unusual as his appearance, but I think he is very knowledgeable regarding weight training.

Tom

[61pwcc]

Yep, Al, the Deadlift IS the way to go. I’d like to add to what you said. The mental benefit coming from manhandling a big dead is priceless. Most of us can master a big deadlift long before a big squat. Deading a big weight is a huge mental boost.
For myself, I switch up my dead workouts. Sometimes I warmup with snatches or cleans. Just get a good groove going then jump into deads. I notice my dead technique is a little sharper form the high skill snatches/cleans. Other times, I go heavy on the deads first then hit snatches or cleans. Either of which I’m able to go relatively heavy on because of the heavy deads. I also pull sumo, Jefferson, Hack, Untrapt bar.
I’m sure you know this was coming… SIDE BENDS!! Most of us are either left or right handed. We are ALWAYS going to favor one side when the going gets tough…WHETHER YOU FEEL IT OR NOT…WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT. I try to minimize leaning more to one side at all times in my training. I think the best thing you can do for your low back health/balance is heavy side bends. I believe it is the BEST injury preventitive exercise you can do.
Lastly, its alot easier to bail out on a deadlift than a squat or a clean…just drop the damn weight.

[Author]

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