Mike Burk Fulton World Record???

[dwagman]

Mike Burk Fulton World Record???

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I could have sworn that somewhere or another GRaham had a 600+. Of course he hook gripped it.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

Dan – I’m assuming the reason they are calling it a World Record is because it was done with the IronMind Apollon’s Axle, and done under Randy’s “watch”. Big Matt did his 540# lift (which WAS hook gripped as well!), in Kevin Fulton’s barn and with a unspecified 2″ bar (not an original Apollons Axle). That was officially Matts top overhand 2″ bar lift.

That lift by Mike Burke is HUGE. One thing I noticed in the writeup was the reporting of the amount lifted. First they said 516 lbs., then later 235 kilograms. Well – they must be using a different conversion chart than what I use.

Dinoman

[Timo Lauttamus]

Just converted 235kg = 518.07lbs

I’ve been lifting once IM contest in Finland, and only DO without hook was allowed and had to be original IM axle as well which is quite sticky with chalk.

So they talk about DO IM axle DL WR, which is that Burke’s 516lbs?

[61pwcc]

After seeing Mark Henry Clean and Jerk Apollon’s Axle DO for 3 reps at the Arnold Strongman contest a few years back, I’d like to see what he could Deadlift with the Apollon’s Axle. What an athlete!!

[dwagman]

Well, Al, this WAS done in California. A lot of things are different there than in the rest of the world, including the weight of a kg. LOL Good catch!

I was in Kevin’s barn when Matt did that lift and have tons of pictures. In one of the pictures I took, you can see Matt setting his hook grip. I had forgotten that. Yet it still counts as an official USAWA/IAWA lift.

I also zoomed in closely on the picture I took of the loaded bar alone. You are indeed correct, it’s just some sort of 2″ thick bar (probably the original Fulton bar that would likely go at an auction for around 3.68 million 🙂 ). But that, too, doesn’t seem to matter regarding Matt’s record.

So I still don’t understand what “world record” Burk broke? Is it the “Southern California Iron Mind Bar Overhand Deadlift World Record?”

I realize that I’m being sarcastic, but with a purpose. I think it’s a joke how in strength sport everybody’s breaking world records. It’s like in powerlifting where you now have 10 different world organizations. So if you’re the world champ in your weight class, there are 9 others that can claim the same. What a joke!

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Anonymous]

Dan, I’m all with you on the sarcasm – but I don’t see things changing.

Burkes lift was quite impressive – and will stand as the IronMind World Record (because it was done with an original AA and done under the rules set forth by Randy Strossen.)

I know some people have issues with Randy, but he has done alot for the iron game. His MILO publication is one of only a few strength-oriented printed publications anymore (not that that means as much as it used to), and he has created training interests that were not there before he started emphazing things (ie grippers, grip comps, 20 rep squats, etc), or more like commercializing things. In some ways he is the modern day Bob Hoffman (ohhh…those are some strong words!!!!)

But I got bigger issues to deal with on this topic – which will be revealed later this week in a website blog!!!! Al

[Al Myers]

One more thing –

James, I was there AS WELL at the Arnold when Henry did those three reps on the Apollons Axel loaded with 365 lbs.!!! It still remains as one of the most impressive strength feats I have ever seen first hand. Al

[Anonymous]

So a guys goes and does something that maybe only a couple other people can do and the biggest thing you can do is call out that his record is not really a record. Pretty amazing feat if you ask me, and as someone who has used a homemade axle and an appollons axle, huge difference between the two. Congrats to Mike Burke, huge lift and I am not gonna doubt the weight done.

[Anonymous]

And the last thing I wanted to say that grip lifts done under USAWA standards are a lot harder and more strict than other grip contest. Having to pickup the weight to lockout at the waist is a huge difference and waiting for a down command.

[Scott Tully]

Ironminds axle dealdift is done with a official appollons IM bar, and is done with a overhand grip, no hook. I don’t see what is so difficult to understand about this being a record. Matts is a fulton bar DL record, different standards. Where is matts record listed at in the record book? as it would have to jsut be a regular fulton record, as the ciavatone grip cant be hooked?

ST

[KCSTRONGMAN]

a 516 double overhand without a hook is just foolish. What incredible hand strength
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Al Myers]

The professor is right. Burkes lift was done without a hook according to the rules of the competition established by Randy, with input from Odd. I know the picture of him sorta looks like he might be hooking it (the thumb is turned in), but it was not supposed to be allowed. The following is the rule that was used:

2012 Ironmind Record Breaker

Double Overhand Deadlift World Record Challenge The athletes (reverse order of overall standing) will each attempt to dead lift the IronMind Apollon’s Axle™ loaded with standard plates, starting weight 160kg/352lb and increasing with each attempt till there is ONE MAN STANDING. Time starts when Axle is loaded, and athletes have 30 seconds to commence the lift. No grip aids other than
chalk allowed. Athletes must grip axle with knuckles on both facing away from body
(double overhand grip). Thumbless or locked thumb grip not allowed. Otherwise, standard power lifting rules (including Sumo style) apply, resting Axle on the thighs or any downward movement will NOT be allowed. Athletes must await referee’s down
signal before returning the Axle back to the platform all the while maintaining the grip/contact with Axle. The anticipated schedule of weights will be (subject to Referee’s judgment): 160kg/352lb; 180kg/396lb; 200kg/440lb; 210kg/463lb; 220kg/485lb; etc. Each athlete must lift the opening weight to be in the competition, but may “pass” on
subsequent weights as long as he does so prior to his turn. World record is 502lb set by Rich Williams (USA) June 26, 2010

[dwagman]

Matt’s record is listed in the USAWA record book under “Deadlift, Fulton, Ciavattone grip.” That same lift by Matt is also listed in the IAWA record book under “2-Hand Fulton” as performed on the same date.

The USAWA rules for a Ciavattone grip do not allow a hook grip and are ostensibly the same as what Randy had the lifters do. The IAWA rules for the 2-Hands Fulton are silent regarding hooking or not.

According to my pictures, and Al’s recollection (though I don’t recall Al being there and witnessing this first-hand), Matt did indeed hook his overhand grip on the Fulton bar.

Now, what 2″ bar is used seems irrelevant to me. After all, I use the Iron Mind AA in my training, it was the bar used last year at IAWA worlds, and 2″ is 2″.

The issue as I see it is:
a) What world record did Burk break? What sanction, if any, was this run under?
b) Although clearly an impressive lift, Burk’s is not comparable to what Matt did in ’01 weighing about 30 pounds less than Burk.
c) Now it turns out that there may have been a recording error in Matt’s attempt as he apparently did hook the barbell, which would mean he didn’t do a Ciavattone on a Fulton bar. With that info, if accurate, then Burk’s lift is not only impressive, but does exceed what has been done in USAWA and IAWA, but unless this meet held some sanction, it’s only an unofficial world record and should be viewed and reported as such.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

A drug test wouldn’t hurt. I feel ALL TIME WORLD RECORDS should come with a MANDATORY drug test.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

HAHA-this record did not happen in the IAWA. Drug tests are non existent in the world that this lift took place.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[61pwcc]

it must really suck to be on Performance Enhancing Drugs(PED). How do your know what REALLY works for a diet and/or a training program?! It must royally suck to think you’re nothing without being on ‘it’. It must constantly suck to wonder,”how much is me doing this versus what I’m taking?”. It must absolutely suck to know you’ll quit only when you’re dead or nearly so. If you DO quit, it will god awfully suck to know that training(if you resume) will NEVER be like it was.
I never have and never will envy those folks. Why would I?

[KCSTRONGMAN]

YEah, I have heard a number of instances where a fella would come off then not be able to take the huge drop in poundages, so either get back on or disappear. I may not lift the most, but what I do is mine, and if I drop in poundages, it is usually negligible unless due to injury, and can be regained through tweaking diet and/or training regimin. That being said, I have no idea on Mike Burke and whether he is dirty or not. He is a monster.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

It must really suck to sit around and complain about what another person has accomplished and then bash him without even knowing the truth about him or not.

[61pwcc]

[b]Quote from casinonman on February 5, 2013, 19:56[/b]
It must really suck to sit around and complain about what another person has accomplished and then bash him without even knowing the truth about him or not.

Yeah, you’re right except I didn’t complain about the lift OR the lifter. It was a great lift. So why not lift in a sanctioned drug tested meet and be above reproach? What is more legitimate than nailing an All Time World Record with 3 judges and drug testing?
I would love to see ALL those guys from Randy’s meet come to the Grip contest this Saturday. Hell, we could call it the Grip Gripe contest.
Honestly, I don’t care if the guys in any of the contest I compete in are on steroids or not. I can only control myself. I appreciate many performances from Platz to Kaz. I REALLY appreciate performances by people like Frank Ciavattone. You’ll NEVER hear me gripe about a great lift being drug fueled. If you knew me personally, you’d know that to be true.
I hope your lifting is going great and I hope we can meet up on the same lifting platform someday and beat the snot out of some weights together.

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from 61pwcc on February 5, 2013, 17:25[/b]
it must really suck to be on Performance Enhancing Drugs(PED). How do your know what REALLY works for a diet and/or a training program?! It must royally suck to think you’re nothing without being on ‘it’. It must constantly suck to wonder,”how much is me doing this versus what I’m taking?”. It must absolutely suck to know you’ll quit only when you’re dead or nearly so. If you DO quit, it will god awfully suck to know that training(if you resume) will NEVER be like it was.
I never have and never will envy those folks. Why would I?

That’s an interesting perspective. I wonder how that compares to using knee wraps, wrist wraps, and a belt. After all, they all artificially enhance a lifter’s performance. Bottom line, if a guy takes a shot of testosterone once a wk to get bigger and stronger, how’s that really any different than a guy who has his training partner wrap his knees so that he can squat the 500 pounds he otherwise couldn’t squat?

And there’s one more consideration governing knee wraps and a belt…they do not prevent injury. In fact, research is rather clear that the use of a belt and knee wraps can instead cause injury.

So one guy is artificially enhancing his performance by taking a drug, the other wraps up his joints. At the end of the day, the result is the same…you ain’t strong enough to lift the weight without the aid.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Sorry Dan, but I do not agree with you on this statement:

Now, what 2? bar is used seems irrelevant to me. After all, I use the Iron Mind AA in my training, it was the bar used last year at IAWA worlds, and 2? is 2?.

I have lifted on many 2″ bars around the World – and 2″ is not always 2″. In my opinion the Apollons Axle is much harder to grip than other “so-called” 2″ bars. The AA is a true 2″ and has a very smooth surface for gripping. Most 2″ bars that are used in other places in competition ARE NOT commercially made bars, like the AA. They often are made of pipe which may be sold as 2 inch pipe, but when you actually measure the outside diameter it is less (often 1.9″). The USAWA rules state the minimum is 1 -15/16″ for a Fulton Bar (IAWAUK rules don’t even give minimum specs, just state a 2″ bar must be used, which is seldom the case). Add in the fact that galvanized pipe is often the “pipe of choice”, and there’s another advantage. I love lifting on galvanized pipe as it has a texture feel to it, and gives more friction to your grip. I won’t even mention the times I’ve seen light knurling on a fulton bar, which definitely shouldn’t be allowed. So NO – 2″ is not always 2″!!!

[Al Myers]

Another comment –

An original Apollons Axle will be used as the Fulton Bar this weekend at the Grip Championships. Al

[Thom Van Vleck]

I really enjoy Al and Dan going round and round!

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[KCSTRONGMAN]

“they do not prevent injury. In fact, research is rather clear that the use of a belt and knee wraps can instead cause injury.”

My personal research proves otherwise. while I could deadlift the same with or without a belt, when I spent 2 weeks training without, I severly herniated a disc in my back. Interesting coincidence? Nope. I wont pull heavy without a belt ever again. I dont care what all the research aside from that showed.

As far as the equipment vs gear goes, I was contemplating that last weekend. As a professional strongman, I was around lots of equipment and lots of gear. I chose to use the high quality deadlift suits, wrist straps and whatever wrap was allowed, when it was allowed in order to be competitive. I chose not to do the juice. Thinking back, I am not sure exactly what the difference is (besides my own health) but that is where I drew the line. Maybe it was because you could not see the drugs beating you, but you could surely see someone beating you in a car DL hold because they had straps and you didnt or in a DL because they were getting 50# out of their suit and you didnt have one.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Timo Lauttamus]

Always interested about bar discussion,

so there is standard diameter pipe galvanized or not 48,3mm = ~1.9″ which is certainly easier to lift than 2″ IM AA, just because fingers are reaching way more around and if bar is 0,1″ smaller than holes of discs rotation is not perfect (discs a bit hanging) , of course bars are not revolving but still when using overhand grip is rotation which is forcing bar out of our hands, so far i’ve seen only 50mm = ~1,97″ finnish axle steel which is harder to lift than 2″ IM AA, just because it’s not holding chalk even a bit, like IM AA does.

[Al Myers]

Timo, I was referring to Schedule 80, extra strong carbon Steel pipe that has an OD of 1.9″. Pipe is sold by inside diameter readings, so this would be 1.5″ ID pipe, to give this 1.9″ OD. This is what most use for a 2″ bar when buying pipe, as it is a common size used in industry.

You made another good point by stating that smaller pipe allows more plate rotation, which increases the ease of lifting. This is especially noticeable when a 2″ bar is cleaned and taken overhead. Since the 2″ bar has no rotating sleeves, and if the fit is “tight” between the bar and plates, it creates angular momentum when the bar is “turned over” as the plates will be “sticking” to the bar. This increases the difficulty. So you can see why using a 1.9″ bar would help – as there would be extra slack between the bar and the plates to allow natural rotation of the plates (which is the PURPOSE of rotating sleeves on bars).

We always keep our collars “loose” when doing lifts like the overhead Apollons Lift as to allow this rotation. Al

[dwagman]

Gosh darnitt, Dinoman! I knew as soon as I hit send that the 2″ = 2″ would get me in the ass. Of course I agree that even when a bar is in fact precisely 2″, another one at the precise same diameter could still hold differences in steel that could either enhance or diminish grip strength.

Now I’ve gotta pick a fight with ET. 🙂

I hear what you’re saying about your own, personal experience. But please consider that you’re only looking at one moment in time when this injury occurred. Just because the injury occurred at a moment when you did not wear a belt, is not necessarily an indication that not wearing the belt caused the injury. Considering “who you are” and that you “always” train, I would argue that there were many things that lead up to this injury over time. I would go as far as arguing that the injury would’ve occurred with or without the belt. Here are some additional reasons for this statement…

Injuries occur due to one of, or a combination of, these reasons:

1. Doing too much too soon, e.g., you think you’re strong enough to lift 500, but you’re not (could be just at that point in time because you indeed lifted that much before), and you try it anyway.

2. You use poor technique. This need not be a deviation in technique that can be seen with the naked eye, it can constitute minute changes imperceptible to the eye, but you’ll feel it. Your back could’ve come out of neutral spine ever so slightly, rounded, and there goes your disc.

3. You’re overtrained (OT). Determining OT is rather difficult because it involves both physiology and psychology. And believe it or not, research has established that the most reliable way to determine OT is via sport psychological measures, not physical ones. What this means is that you could’ve been OT and not even know it, and the weakest link went–your disc.

So please don’t dismiss the research. Studies take all variables into account to dwindle it down to the specific things the scientists are interested in. Overall, however, it’s clear that in the long term by using a belt you’re increasing your risk of injury because you’re preventing your spine from moving and adapting in the proper way. For the vast majority of lifters, then, it’s only a matter of time. And just because there are some that don’t have problems, that’s not evidence that the belt is a good and healthy thing to use. One of my fellow paratrooper’s chute didn’t open and he screamed in like crazy…and survived. That’s not evidence against the effectiveness of a parachute when jumping out of a plane.

Now, the ergogenic aspect of a belt, well, that’s an entirely different discussion.

OK, gotta hit the Dungeon and add the finishing touches for my Valentine weekend in Kansas…LET’S GET READY TO CRAAAAAAAAAANK!!!!!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

[b]Quote from dwagman on February 7, 2013, 09:36[/b]
[quote]

That’s an interesting perspective. I wonder how that compares to using knee wraps, wrist wraps, and a belt. After all, they all artificially enhance a lifter’s performance. Bottom line, if a guy takes a shot of testosterone once a wk to get bigger and stronger, how’s that really any different than a guy who has his training partner wrap his knees so that he can squat the 500 pounds he otherwise couldn’t squat?

And there’s one more consideration governing knee wraps and a belt…they [i]do not[/i] prevent injury. In fact, research is rather clear that the use of a belt and knee wraps can instead [i]cause[/i] injury.

So one guy is artificially enhancing his performance by taking a drug, the other wraps up his joints. At the end of the day, the result is the same…[i]you ain’t strong enough to lift the weight without the aid.[/i]

Dan

I compare by saying that steroids are ILLEGAL. That exoskeleton of belt,wraps,etc. ain’t.
Belts for adding weight to dips and pullups are ok. Otherwise, I think belts and knee wraps are a VERY BAD idea!! I’ve always likened it to helping a friend move to a new place or maybe doing some heavy yard work. You ain’t going to wear the exoskeleton during these times are you? So, why train that way?
Wrist Straps? Guilty as charged. If I could do a 555lb 3″ Bar Deadlift like our fearless Prez Al Myers, then I wouldn’t need the straps for the Car Deadlift in Strongman meets. This is the only time I use them. I am working on not needing them at all. BTW I did break the WR on the Fulton Bar Jefferson Lift with 505lbs on 12/1/12 so, I’m getting there.
—————————————————————————-
“they do not prevent injury. In fact, research is rather clear that the use of a belt and knee wraps can instead cause injury.” Dan

“My personal research proves otherwise. while I could deadlift the same with or without a belt, when I spent 2 weeks training without, I severly herniated a disc in my back. Interesting coincidence? Nope. I wont pull heavy without a belt ever again. I dont care what all the research aside from that showed.” KCSTRONGMAN
KC, I’m going to say the injury came from not giving yourself enough time to relearn. Lifting technique is alot different without a belt. After only benching in a shirt for years, an 800 lb shirted bencher ain’t going to try and hit 600lb in a t-shirt anytime soon. There’s alot of relearning to do.

[Anonymous]

My research has shown that this has turned into a load of crap.

[61pwcc]

Casinonman, why so unhappy?
There’s been ALOT of great discussion on here. A guy lifts a monster weight and we talk about it. Heck, we even start discussing when is a 2″ bar not a 2″ bar, PED and exoskeletons. The only things missing from the discussion is blood doping and the 3 Fatal Flaws of the Kelly Snatch.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Dan, I concede that I was using poor form, and I am certain that contributed to it as well. But I know that it was during tose 2 or 3 weeks of beltless training that the disc went. So I cleaned up my form and use a belt.

YEs, steroids are illegal and knee wraps are not. Not sure that is why I drew the line there though. It is also illegal to drive 89 MPH in a 50MPH zone, but that didnt stop me (thanks Al).

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[KCSTRONGMAN]

I’ve always likened it to helping a friend move to a new place or maybe doing some heavy yard work. You ain’t going to wear the exoskeleton during these times are you? So, why train that way?

I wouldnt, cause I dont do it all the time, but those cats that move people for a living often wear a support belt.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[KCSTRONGMAN]

My research has shown that this has turned into a load of crap.

My response to this is two-fold.
1) What research have you done that could possibly tell you that?
2) You hurt my feeling the other day, and now you have hurt them again.

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

I am not unhappy at all, more just trying to be a smart ass. ET I expected a different rebuttal than your answer. I am sorry for hurting your feelings and I am sure I will continue to hurt them again.

Jesse

[61pwcc]

I am often called a smart-ass so I can appreciate what you say. My rubuttal to being called such is,”Better to be a smart-ass than a DUMB-ASS!”.
Jim

[KCSTRONGMAN]

OK Jesse, just so you know, I have a tube sock full of nickels with your name on it
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Anonymous]

I guess you and I use tube socks for different reasons.

[KCSTRONGMAN]

Leave it to Jesse…
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Lance Foster]

[b]Quote from casinonman on February 8, 2013, 14:12[/b]
I guess you and I use tube socks for different reasons.

I don’t believe that any research is needed on this one…way, way too much information! 🙂

The Gloved One

[Joe Garcia]

Matt’s lift was listed as 2″ Overhand deadlift in the contest, and no mention was made about using a hook grip.

[Author]

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