Straight arm pullover technique???

[Timo Lauttamus]

Straight arm pullover technique???

[dwagman]

Hey Timo, here are the rules of the lift:

E11 STIFF ARM PULLOVER
The lifter will lay face up on the floor with the barbell held at arms length, resting on the lifting surface. The maximum sized discs for this lift are 11 inches. On the referees command the lifter will raise the bar in one continuous movement, keeping the arms straight, to a point over the chest at right angles with the body. The knees should be kept straight, and the head, shoulders, buttocks and feet should not leave the floor at any point during the lift. The lifter can have the feet held down by an aide. On completion the referee will signal to replace the bar.

As you can see, your butt cannot leave the floor. As it comes to the particulars of execution, I wouldn’t rely on the stuff you find on Youtube and many other places because they lack in scientific support. One of the main questions I would have, is whether this lift allows the lifter to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle as this would allow you to lift significantly more weight. This would occur if you were allowed to start by having the barbell at the start over your chest, essentially in the finished position. Then you lower the barbell with straight arms to the starting position and await the judges command to lift, then you explode. This is beneficial because your muscles store energy during an eccentric contraction that is then released in the concentric contraction. The problem, however, is that the longer the command to start takes, the more of that stored energy you lose. This is a prime reason, as an example, why box squats are utterly worthless in terms of building explosive strength for the squat. Another consideration is that taking advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle does take training in terms of learning the requisite neuromuscular control, especially in an odd lift like the stiff arm pullover.

So the main question, as I see it, is whether you can have the barbell handed to you, or press it yourself first, then you lower it to the starting position; or if you have to start with the barbell on the floor similar to a pull-over and push/press. If you have to do that, or if you can anticipate the judge’s start command to take long (more than 1-2 seconds), then there are other physiological considerations that you can take advantage of. You can always contact me via my Body Intellect page for more.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Thom Van Vleck]

This brings me to another question, the Straight arm pullover as an exercise. I have an uncle that swears by these and I believe Vern Weaver had this as one of a half dozen exercises he swore by. However, they both did these in a lat machine.

Dan, what’s your thought on this as an exercise. I have been doing them this way or lying prone on the floor.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Timo Lauttamus]

[b]Quote from dwagman on August 27, 2013, 13:26[/b]
Hey Timo, here are the rules of the lift:

[b]E11 STIFF ARM PULLOVER[/b]
[i]The lifter will lay face up on the floor with the barbell held at arms length, resting on the lifting surface. The maximum sized discs for this lift are 11 inches. On the referees command the lifter will raise the bar in one continuous movement, keeping the arms straight, to a point over the chest at right angles with the body. The knees should be kept straight, and the head, shoulders, buttocks and feet should not leave the floor at any point during the lift. The lifter can have the feet held down by an aide. On completion the referee will signal to replace the bar.[/i]

As you can see, your butt cannot leave the floor. As it comes to the particulars of execution, I wouldn’t rely on the stuff you find on Youtube and many other places because they lack in scientific support. One of the main questions I would have, is whether this lift allows the lifter to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle as this would allow you to lift significantly more weight. This would occur if you were allowed to start by having the barbell at the start over your chest, essentially in the finished position. Then you lower the barbell with straight arms to the starting position and await the judges command to lift, then you explode. This is beneficial because your muscles store energy during an eccentric contraction that is then released in the concentric contraction. The problem, however, is that the longer the command to start takes, the more of that stored energy you lose. This is a prime reason, as an example, why box squats are utterly worthless in terms of building explosive strength for the squat. Another consideration is that taking advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle does take training in terms of learning the requisite neuromuscular control, especially in an odd lift like the stiff arm pullover.

So the main question, as I see it, is whether you can have the barbell handed to you, or press it yourself first, then you lower it to the starting position; or if you have to start with the barbell on the floor similar to a pull-over and push/press. If you have to do that, or if you can anticipate the judge’s start command to take long (more than 1-2 seconds), then there are other physiological considerations that you can take advantage of. You can always contact me via my Body Intellect page for more.

-d

Thanks for your answer Dan.

[61pwcc]

Timo, this is me at the Nationals in June of this year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE-2Tzv8Hos&feature=player_detailpage

[Al Myers]

Timo,

Dan’s answer is “spot on” on the benefits of allowing the lifter to start with the bar in the position above the chest, which is allowed in the rules.

However, it doesn’t always help a lot in regards to weight lifted in competition because there is a good pause at the platform which causes some of the “stretch reflex” to be lost.

The big issue you are probably having is that you are not “tight” at the beginning of the lift. Is that the way you feel? I know you have good shoulder flexibility. Try tightening up your lat muscles prior to pulling on the bar. Also do not get too wide with your grip – a shoulder width grip is the best. The hips MUST stay on the platform the entire time, but a slight rise of the hips (while maintaining contact) will help in getting the lift initiated. Make sure your feet are anchored (either by an assistant, or braced under something). Al

[dwagman]

Hey Al, where in the rules do you see that starting this lift over your chest is permitted? Is that one of those elusive, invisible, unwritten “rules” you’ve talked about? hic hic

You also bring up another important physiological consideration when you talk about shoulder flexibility. Because of all the unsupported claims regarding flexibility, researchers have actually looked into it. We’ve naturally discussed these studies in detail in JOPP, and although these details shouldn’t be overlooked, a key finding is that the more flexible a muscle, the less force it can generate.

Timo, if you come from the weightlifting arm of strength sport, then it’s likely that your shoulders are very flexible and therefore you might find your strength in this lift disappointing. So Al’s advice on tightness might be even more important to you, though you might be limited due to your flexibility in how tight you can actually get.

Thom, now you know I can’t just give you my personal opinion without some exercise science stuff first…LOL

So in wearing my professional hat now, that’s not an easy question to answer as exercise choice should depend on the person’s goals, sport, and challenge areas. One shouldn’t do an exercise just to do an exercise, it must be based on a specific purpose. There are also specific functional anatomy considerations to bear in mind such as which muscles are recruited and to what extent (neurological considerations exists as well). And that brings me to another consideration—the bang for the buck…er…rep. Put another way, is the time and effort put into repping out the exercise worth the gains (not to mention time spent in learning proper execution)? Might another exercise give you much more bang for the reps you put into it while training the same muscles? Also to consider is, of course, the injury potential of the exercise in deciding whether it should be done or not.

I might point out that the above is just scratching the surface as one also needs to consider movement mechanics, point in time in the training cycle, training status, gender, etc. I should emphasize, too, that these perspectives come from the goal of attaining peak performance in sport. If peak performance isn’t really the person’s goal, then they can do whatever exercise they want and not worry too much about the finer points. Not everybody approaches training from the peak performance model or from a desire to maximize their potential, some just want to pump iron and have fun, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

So what do I personally think of this exercise? Wait, I need to switch hats here…OK, got my meathead hat on now…

What a f*^&#!g joke of an exercise!

Look, of course it’s contested at worlds this year and if you want to compete in worlds, or any other all-‘round competition that contests this lift, then you better train this lift. But come on…Personally, I have no desire to do this lift because I don’t like lifts that due to the requisite lever limitations, mechanics, and/or technical/judging considerations don’t allow me to CRANK on some serious weight. Heck, big ET was getting his ass handed to him with something like 115 pounds at the Dino Record Breakers a few weekends ago. Screw that!

It’s like the strict reverse curl. The rules of this lift prohibit you from moving any appreciable amounts of weight and throughout the range of motion you have to fight natural joint movements to be able to execute the lift within the established rules. In fact, the winner of America’s Strongest Man in the 1920’s or so, Anton Matysek, had to have his elbows tied to his waist to do this lift “properly,” but we can’t do that in USAWA/IAWA. But I’m starting to rant…

The point to me is simply this, if blood vessels aren’t about to explode under the strain of the exercise and weight, why bother with that exercise? I’ve got much more important things to do with my training time, such as LOADING UP A BARBELL AND BENDING THAT SUCKER as opposed to lifting 5-year old girl weights.

But hey, that’s just the meathead in me talking…LOL The fact is, all-’round weightlifting offers serious challenges and I really appreciate that. So what if there are some lifts that I might consider stupid.

– d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[KCSTRONGMAN]

One shouldn’t do an exercise just to do an exercise, it must be based on a specific purpose.

My specific purpose in doing any exercise is to get cock strong and hopefully someday become a bad Mo-Dicker. I just thought Id throw that in there. That being said, I felt a complete and thorough distain for this whilst attempting it at the record day.
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[dwagman]

Yeah, you guys should’ve seen the look on ET’s face. I actually ducked after he got up from his failed attempt because I thought he’s gonna bend down, grab that barbell, and throw it through the wall.

[…note to self…if you can throw the barbell…it ain’t heavy enough to be worth lifting…]

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Thom Van Vleck]

Dan, I actually asked you specifically because I wanted to here both your “KU trained scientist” take and your “meathead” take! HAHAHA

I have done them because my Uncle has wanted me to and he knows a lot about training….most of it I agree with…but this is one I did not see the use in it. I do 3 sets of 10….and don’t really feel much out of it. I would rather do bent arm pullovers and load the weight up!

Vern Weaver swore by these which I found odd. But I also think it’s as much your belief in an exercise that will make it work as science for many people (but not all….ultimately reality wins).

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[Al Myers]

Dan –

The USAWA Rule for the Pullover – Straight Arm is as follows:

D24. Pullover – Straight Arm
The lift begins with the lifter lying face up on the platform, with legs straight, and arms straight above the head. The bar is gripped with the palms of the hands up with hand spacing a maximum of shoulder width. Maximum diameter of the plates on the bar is 11 inches. The legs must remain straight and flat to the platform during the lift. An assistant may hold the feet down. The bar may be held above the body and lowered to the platform prior to the start of the lift. However, the bar must be paused on the platform prior to receiving a command from the official to begin the lift. Once the lifter is in this position with the plates resting on the platform, an official will give a command to start the lift. The lifter must raise the bar until the arms are at a 90 degree angle to the platform. The arms must remain straight during the lift or it will be a disqualification. The bar must not be lowered during the lift. Once the bar is motionless, an official will give a command to end the lift. Spotters may assist in lowering the bar.

The IAWA(UK) rule is what was given before in this discussion, and YES, it does not include a statement saying the lifter is allowed to START with the bar above the chest and able to lower the bar into the start position. This was brought to my attention at the 2009 IAWA Worlds when this lift was contested, as I watched a few of the veteran lifters performing it this way. Of course, I didn’t know that was even allowed at that point as it was not specified in the rulebook. When I asked – the response was it has always been that way.

Gee – don’t you think that would have got changed in the IAWA(UK) rulebook by now???????

Al

[61pwcc]

Kinda surprised I do so well on the Stiff Arm Pullover cuz I definitely have too much shoulder flexibility. Oddly enough, my shoulders tightened up quite a bit from Olympic Lifting.

[dwagman]

Hey Thom, I totally agree with you. There are some exercises some people just like to do. They just feel good for some reason and the person simply has fun doing them. So unless that exercise is counterproductive to ones goals, or injurious, why not do it?

But you’re also quite correct in that at the end of the day, only science will be able to answer what actual practical or performance utility an exercise may hold.

—–

Gee – don’t you think that would have got changed in the IAWA(UK) rulebook by now???????

Al, you’re the IAWA Prez…make it happen. 🙂

—–

Jim, you also need to consider your unique levers and what role they play in executing this, or any exercise. While too much flexibility reduces everybody’s strength potential, this might not manifest itself in all people equally due to several issues, one of which being anthropometrics, or the type of exercise, etc. That’s the prime reason why it’s silly to do what Larry Scott did, or Cyr, and expect to reach ones potential. Only a scientific and controlled study can show if Scott, Cyr, et al. were on the right track or not…and what will propel everybody’s performance to the next level. Since back then there was no such thing as exercise science, and since those guys just made guesses based on their unique genetic predispositions, it comes as no surprise that all of this “wisdom” we read about in Strength & Health, Iron Man, etc., and, sadly, even most publications today, is essentially nonsense.

The point is, Jim, with less shoulder flexibility you’d do even better in this exercise. But that might limit your performance in other exercises. So as always, it comes down to matters of peak performance and making choices.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Timo Lauttamus]

I will train again this one tomorrow, now i’m gonna anchor my feet, which i didn’t do before 🙂 I have been using slightly wider grip than my shoulders and 18″ standard size 10kg discs in the bar, truly i didn’t get any touch in start of the lift, partly because no ‘tightness’.

Anyhow, perhaps my way to start pulls/chins from extremely ‘deep’ dead hang is fighting against this lift.

Thanks to all of you and let’s try again tomorrow 🙂
Great discussion!

[Al Myers]

James –

I thought you might have problems with the SA Pullover before you did it, but then after watching you I realized why you were so good at it. Your extraordinary shoulder flexibility actually helped you. You were able to rotate your shoulders inward to such a degree that it allowed you to initiate the lift using your upper back muscles instead of using the deltoid muscles, like everyone else. Watch yourself again on video and you will see what I’m talking about. Most everyone else can not get their shoulders in that position to begin with. It’s all about leverage – and your flexibility in this instance helped that.

Now take me as the opposite example. There is a difference between having flexibility (the ability of muscles, including ligaments and tendons, to extend over a distance) and range of motion limited by your skeletal system. I was worried that I would not even be able to get into the starting position prior to this meet, as I had not been able to in training. My left should is very limited in range of motion due to degeneration. My recent surgery helped this, but I am “bone on bone” when my arm is extended in an overhead position. However, after that loud audible “pop” during the clean and press beforehand, something loosened up and allowed me to perform the lift! I have not been able to since then. I did very well in the SA Pullover at the meet only because of the force developed by the compressive forces from bone contact in my shoulder, as I was beyond my skeletal range of motion. The most difficult part of the lift at the meet for me was forcing myself into the starting position, which actually got easier as I had more weight on the bar. The upward lift was easy, and I could have done more and possible could have exceeded my best of 60 kg, which was done when I was push pressing well over 300 pounds and my shoulders were healthy. My shoulder strength is now far from that!!!

My take on this lift is that the extremes are what help you: 1. either great shoulder flexibility, or 2. poor range of motion. Everyone always focuses on muscular strength, whereas leverages are probably more important in determining how much weight you can lift in individual movements. My years of studying engineering in college taught me that. Al

[dwagman]

Al, while I agree that leverages are important, they are not more important than muscular strength. Look at it this way, a person’s leverages can’t be changed but strength and power can be. Also, it’s the amount of force or torque a muscle can generate that accounts for movement, not leverages and many a lifter has overcome leverage “disabilities” with pure, unadulterated strength. Kaz’s dl and Lamar’s bp come immediately to mind, but there are others…

When it comes to lifting weights we’re talking about a biological system where biomechanics and physiology interact in complex ways. Of note, not all joint movements are influenced equally by those muscles producing force as mechanical differences can result in differing biological effects. Differences also occur due to pennation angles of the involved muscles, what muscles are actually involved in the movement, different sequences of contraction, and also those muscles that are assisting and even opposing in the movement. Also to consider is that the muscles primarily involved in an exercise are never involved throughout the range of motion to the same extent (a perfect example of how mechanics, or rather physics, influences biology, and subsequently biological adaptations…e.g., strength).

As it relates to Jim, shoulder flexibility beyond that necessary for the range of motion wouldn’t be of help for the reasons I outlined before. I would argue, however, that his shoulders are pretty tight and that prohibited him from getting into a straight-arm starting position. And what probably was the most critical aspect to the amount of weight he was able to lift was that he didn’t have his arms straight or locked during execution of the lift. This reduced the moments and can make a huge difference in the amount of weight lifted.

The complex interplay of biomechanics and physiology also become apparent when considering how the back muscles are involved in this movement. Before initiating the lift, Jim’s (and every body else’s) ability to rotate his shoulders inward would come mainly from depression and retraction of the shoulder blades, accomplished mainly by contractions of the lower traps and rhomboids. When the lift is initiated, the lats in conjunction with the pecs and coracobrachialis produce movement while the shoulder muscles only act as stabilizers.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Timo Lauttamus]

Today i anchored my legs/feet with 55lbs plate and used under 11″ discs in the bar, starting position was somehow “tight” but it became more difficult because size of discs. Also i felt it was much easier without taking bar to the chest first, when i was using shoulder width grip. Somehow, i feel my 79 inches reach is the one, which makes it so hard thing to do.

[Al Myers]

Timo, Its all LEVERAGES LEVERAGES LEVERAGES, and having gorilla length arms does not enhance things in the straight arm pullover!

Dan –

I know I take a more simplistic approach to this – by applying simple laws of physics. Biological systems are much more complex and interact in complex, sometimes impossible to fully understand, ways. I absolutely agree with you on that. Applying mathematics and physic formulas to a lift are straight forward , but in doing that assumptions often have to be made that may not be accurate (but James does “shorten his fulcrum” in performing his straight arm pullovers).

[dwagman]

Yeah, you’re absolutely right Al, biology and anatomy make this a rather complicated matter.

Based on Timo giving us his arm length, and since we’re only talking about a class 1 lever in this exercise, I thought it might be fun to calculate the actual amount of force he’d have to generate in this movement to lift something like 40 kg. But as I dusted off and accessed some files hidden deep in my brain, I started to remember that to do this properly, I’d have to consider more than just the basics of engineering calculations and also consider such things as motive forces, vector resolutions for each of the involved muscles, angles of muscle attachment, resultant force, etc. Sheesh…

Although I thoroughly enjoyed biomech in grad school, I just don’t feel like doing all of this math. And if you reduce it to the simplest aspects of a class 1 lever system, then you’d still be way off the reality of how much force it would take to lift 40 kg.

Well, thanks a lot Al. Now my head hurts. I’m gonna go and grab a beer. And regardless of how many newtons it takes to lift it to my mouth (which are considerably more than the weight of the beer due to biomechanics and anatomy)…I CAN DO IT!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

Dan, you did watch the video of me doing this lift right? My arms were NOT straight on the last one to be sure. A bit of bend maybe on the second one. The first one was definitely straight. My shoulders are NOT tight at all. I wouldn’t have the heaviest Kelly Snatch in the books with tight shoulders!! I’d be willing to bet that I am one of the most flexible people you will EVER meet!!

[Timo Lauttamus]

Still i’m certainly wondering after pulling this off few hours ago, why do i’m struggling with 40kg straight arm pullover?!? Or is it only long forearms which are giving whole length of gorilla? perhaps my upper arms are quite short, which is actually helpful thing with pullups?

[61pwcc]

Timo, give us some video of the Stiff Arm Pullovers you are doing and maybe we can help!!

[dwagman]

Yes Jim, I did watch your video. Otherwise I couldn’t have made that observation.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

Then we disagree

[Timo Lauttamus]

This my technique check up

First four inches of lift is super hard, but when i get it over my dead point, it`s coming up with speed?? What i try to do, is shorten my range and then just lift. How`s that????

This is 40kg, my max should be 45-47,5kg, not more, and very annoying thing is balance, i can`t keep it when i`m lowering bar, always my right arm is following my left.

[Al Myers]

Timo,

those pullovers are very solid and with good technique, you should have no problem with those being passed!!!!

As for the arms coming down at different speeds and touching at different times, that is not an infraction as the lift is only “being judged” during the lifting phase after the “LIFT” command is given.

I predict you at 50-55 kg for max. Al

[dwagman]

Indeed, Timo, very nice technique indeed.

Considering that your technique is so good, now your ability to maximize your gains, reach your potential, and lift the most weight possible depends on proper training program design and manipulation of training variables. Depending on several variables, a scientific approach to your training can make anywhere between a 10%-30% difference in how much weight you can lift over other approaches. Something to think about.

Best in your training,

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Timo Lauttamus]

Thanks Al and Dan 🙂

I will try to get some progress in last four weeks.

[Author]

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