The SL Deadlift Must Die

[dwagman]

The SL Deadlift Must Die

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

Dan,
I disagree. Like you I’ve been in this game a LONG TIME. I do not have the formal education you have. I’ve abided by one simple rule when it comes to working out.
If my body does or can move that way without pain then, it’s OK. I want my training to prepare me for lifting in all sort of situations not just the semi-controlled enviornment of the gym. That’s why I love All-Round Lifting!! Many times we have to do things while in a less than ‘efficient’ body position. I’m sure the way I sleep has put some enormous shearing forces on my spine!! To me training in only ‘efficient’ body positions is worse than no training at all. You potentially build up mental and physical barriers to moving your body outside your norm.
Like you, I’ve done quite a bit of reading. I’ve been hearing about shearing forces for years. I believe these forces are to be ready for NOT ran away from. Much like when the science of Aerodynamics claimed that by their understanding, a Bumble bee should not be able to fly, a reevaluation of their understanding was in order. I believe a reevaluation of what our bodies are doing is in order.
I’d dare to say that more important than front to back mechanics is LEFT & RIGHT mechanics. Most of us are either right side dominant or left side dominant. Many folks who have low back injuries are due to a misalignment of the pelvis and spine often via the Quadratus Lumborum(QL). The QL not only connects to ALL 5 lumbar vertebrae but also both floating ribs. On right dominant folks, Right QL=too tight while LeftQL=too stretched out. Many years of talking to people and working with them has lead me to believe that injuries are left or right NOT FRONT OR BACK. Most inuries are felt on one side not both sides of the front or both sides of the back. Usually in training, if I feel the work on just one side, I know my alignment is off. I don’t care what type of pull or squat is being done, if yor spine and pelvis are out of whack then you proceed at your own peril.
Don’t get down on those old school lifters, many have lifts we STILL HAVEN’T BEEN ABLE TO BREAK A CENTURY LATER!!! Even if a SLD physically did nothing for your DL, it sure as hell does something for it MENTALLY. Being able to haul up 400+ on a SLD is quite a mental boost for regular DL.
That being said, ANY round back lifting needs plenty of warming up and proper alignment. For round back SLD, know how to use your lats. THE LATS THAT CONNECT TO YOUR PELVIS!! Warm-up with heavy-ish Side Bends with free arm behind head, going for a deep stretch to a) align you hips and spine b)get a feeling for the lats that go into the pelvis. When you round the back, you need to use those big cords of lats that attach into the pelvis to pull on. I believe strong abs will help control how round you go.
Dan, I say resurrect the SLD, just make sure you’re aligned properly, warmed up, abs are strong and know how to use your lats to pull yourself out of the hole.
Jim

[Tom Ryan]

Nice job, Dan. I eagerly await your reply to this, “lucky Al”. 🙂

I generally agree with you, Dan. I have done a few RDLs and would certainly recommend them over SLDLs.

I am baffled by a few of your statements, however.

So you’d be much better off training high pulls than SLDL’s to increase your pull off the ground. There’s a reason weightlifters tend to be great deadlifters…and it’s not because they do SLDL’s.

I don’t see that at all. I can’t think of very many U.S. weightlifters who have been great deadlifters. John Terry was certainly one, however, but what other national- or world-class Olympic lifters have also been great deadlifters? That would definitely require some thought. Various Olympic lifters have tried their hand at powerlifting and have done well, such as Bill Starr, but I wouldn’t describe Starr as a great deadlifter, although he was certainly good at it. Schemansky’s PR deadlift was not very high at all.

If by “high pulls” you meant pulling the bar to belt height, then I might be somewhat in agreement with you but that is not what I would call a high pull, as to me the latter would be like to the level of a snatch pull.

I believe that Olympic lifters do need a lot of low pulling strength. I realized early in my career that deadlifts would not help my clean, so I would just pull the bar over my kneecaps and stop there, doing three reps. My PR was 3 reps with 580, which I did in the Fall of 1973, using straps and with both knuckles facing forward.

As for athletes from other sports, such as football players, I would never recommend that they do any type of low pulls without the close supervision of an expert strength coach. Bill Starr in one of his books recommended that football players simply not do deadlifts.

[Al Myers]

Dan,
First of all, I want to thank you for your response to my blog story on stiff legged deadlifts. That’s the reason for this discussion forum – to stimulate discussion over matters that may help inform/educate.

However, I do not agree with you entirely. I do agree that SL DL’s are an exercise that have the potential to be injury provoking due to the very reasons you gave, and I mentioned those concerns in my story. What I don’t agree with is saying that the SL DL is such a bad choice for an exercise that it should not be done at all by anyone. I will try to convince you and others on this.

You mention excessive shear forces are being the most damaging issue with SL DL’s. But doesn’t the standard deadlift (regular stance) provide nearly the same type of forces on the back? Most lifters will have a slight shoulder round (or convex shape) of the back during part of the pull from the floor. For some this is much more pronounced than others. I remember Gary Heisey’s DL technique when he was the World record holder in the deadlift and his shoulders were always rounded over when the bar was just above the knee. And this was with over 900 pounds!!!! Granted he could probably do reps with over 600 hundred in the SL DL – but is the shear forces actually greater with a SL of 600, or a regular DL of 900??? The same would apply to a 600 deadlifter doing SL’s with 400 pounds. I would say not much different. The increased weight on the bar is the biggest factor in figuring a shear force. A lot of great deadlifters pull with that type of technique, which I say is due to body shape and natural leverages.

Isn’t it important to build round back strength? Look at the strongmen and stone loading. Talk about a movement that puts the back in a terrible position for injury risk. Yet, more strongmen get hurt dropping stones on themselves than injuring their back loading stones. I have this question for you – if you NEVER train your back in a “round back” fashion is your injury risk less when you are forced into this position during a lift? I think not. Training causes adaptation (which you know) to not only the muscles but other supportive tissues (tendons, ligaments, and even bones). My feeling is exercises like SL DL’s prepare you physically for the time when you might end up in that position (like a max deadlift in a meet!). LONG LIVE THE STIFF LEGGED DEADLIFT!!!!! Dinoman

[dwagman]

Wow, got some comments already. You guys don’t waste any time. 🙂

Let me see if I can’t briefly get to all of you in this post. Jim, you first…

From this post, and previous posts of yours, I understand the philosophy that you embrace. You basically want to be a strong dude in everything you do and you believe that you can only accomplish this by challenging yourself in all sorts of ways. You’re the King of functional lifting. But please bear in mind, that even with your philosophy, proper biomechanics should not be compromised. By definition, the SLDL compromises every aspect of what constitutes the proper way to lift a barbell off the ground.

Now, my main bone to pick with you regards your statement about as long as you don’t feel pain, it’s OK. Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth. You see, more often than not, that rep you did that “caused” your injury was likely not the cause. Instead, insult to your tissues has added up over time until pop goes the weasel. Please take this to heart. I’d hate to see your passion for lifting being short-lived.

Also, I don’t want anybody to think that I’m bad-mouthing the old timers. The fact is that these guys were pioneers and flew by the bottom of their seats. They were also in one way or the other responsible for the birth of the scientific field of study known as exercise physiology. As much as we should respect the old timers, we should also accept where they were wrong. I remember publishing an article in Muscle & Fitness about research showing how wrong one of the Weider Principles was. I was told by editorial that we couldn’t publish it. Then Joe called me in his office. We talked about why that one principle of his was wrong. Then he asked me about other principles that might be wrong and wanted to know why they were wrong. He appreciated being enlightened, it was only the others that had a problem with what I wrote. Needless to say, the story ran.

Tom, would you be OK with me changing “great” to “good?” Perhaps I erred in adding a personal observation in an otherwise scientific analysis. But anecdotally, I have never seen an OL’er who tried his hand at PL who didn’t end up deadlifting a ton and was as good, or even better, than most of the PL’ers in the competition. And at the same token, I’ve never seen any of the guys or gals at the OTC do SLDL’s.

As to high pulls, I’m basically talking about a power clean without an actual clean. Replacing the SLDL with a high pull would satisfy all of the scientific requirements to generate more power, which is necessary for a big pull off the ground, while satisfying all of the biomechanical requirements necessary to pull in performance-enhancing and healthy manner.

Al, please consider that in my post I listed several reasons that add up to my conclusion that the SLDL must die. It’s the combination of all of these factors that make this lift one of the most dangerous lifts that a person can do. The rounding of the back (getting out of neutral spine) is but one factor. Granted, it’s an important factor because a rounded back holds ill effects on the entire spine, but it’s still but only one of the factors I mentioned. So while stone lifting requires an immense rounding of the back and shoulders, the lifter still bends his knees and still lifts the stone with the center of mass as close to the coronal plane as possible. So in a general sense, stone lifting could be considered healthier than the SLDL.

You ask whether it’s not important to build round back strength. I would argue that it’s more important to build the isometric strength necessary to keep your back neutral. That would be the key, not performing exercises that end up rounding your back and in doing so increase injury risk. Also, when you end up increasing your isometric strength, then your back will not end up in such a pronounced rounded position, regardless of how much you might be lifting.

Yes, indeed, the body has tremendous adaptive abilities. But the adaptive abilities should be stressed in the proper execution of exercises—and while staying away from those exercises that do not allow for that. As it specifically relates to the spine, note that we’re talking about short, tiny ligaments that hold each vertebra together. There’s not much room for error there. Also, when you stretch a muscle too much, as you would in performing a SLDL via rounded shoulders and rounded back, then the muscle lacks the ability to produce force. This is for mechanical reasons where the components of fibers that cause contraction are stretched out so much, that they have a hard time shortening. Plenty of research has been reviewed in JOPP demonstrating the how and why of why stretching results in less force production (acutely).

I’m sorry guys, in light of all of the things that make the SLDL a poor exercise choice, including all of the much better options we all have to choose from, the risk:benefit ratio for doing the SLDL is so piss poor, that this exercise just needs to die. I’m locked and loaded!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

Dan,
Now, my main bone to pick with you regards your statement about as long as you don’t feel pain, it’s OK. Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth. (Well furthest from that would be that if it DOES hurt, its ok?!?!)
Please take this to heart. I’d hate to see your passion for lifting being short-lived. (Too late for short lived, I’ve been doing this over 25 years!)

Also, I don’t want anybody to think that I’m bad-mouthing the old timers. The fact is that these guys were pioneers and flew by the bottom of their seats. They were also in one way or the other responsible for the birth of the scientific field of study known as exercise physiology. As much as we should respect the old timers, we should also accept where they were wrong.(so wrong that we STILL haven’t broken these 60,70,80,90,100 year old records? They must’ve done SOMETHING right!? Is anyone close to Saxon’s Arthur Lift or Bent Press, Rigoulot’s One Arm/Hand Snatch, Goerner’s One Arm Swing?)

Olympic lifters have made for some great Deadlifting:John Davis 705lbs, Bill Starr 666lb@165(?), Koklyaev won the Russian Nationals in Oylmpic Lifting. Here he is hitting 881lbs for 3 reps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSVV7d146FE&feature=player_detailpage

[Tom Ryan]

No, Starr’s 666 national record deadlift was performed in the 198 class. See http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Deadlift-Deadlift-Program_ep_51-1.html

Of course this was during the early years of powerlifting and several years later Vince Anello did about 150 pounds more than Starr’s record while also lifting in the 198 class.

[Thom Van Vleck]

My head hurts…..

I think I’ll go do some deadlifts. Don’t worry…regular deadlifts.

Thom Van Vleck
Jackson Weightlifting Club
Highland Games athlete and sometimes All-Rounder

[61pwcc]

[b]Quote from tpr42345@aol.com on March 19, 2013, 20:07[/b]
No, Starr’s 666 national record deadlift was performed in the 198 class. See [url]http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Deadlift-Deadlift-Program_ep_51-1.html[/url]

Of course this was during the early years of powerlifting and several years later Vince Anello did about 150 pounds more than Starr’s record while also lifting in the 198 class.

Thanks Tom, I thought it might actually be 165 or 181 but not 198!! Still a 3XBWT+ Dead ain’t too shabby. Vince Anello should’ve been tested…not for steroids but whether or not he was HUMAN!
I believe that after leaving Powerlifting for Olympic Lifting Shane Hamman said he could now pull 800+.
The arch back work in Olympic lifting would be a great ‘off season’ program for a Powerlifter.

[Scott Tully]

Dan,

You would take a token SLDL?, but yet you went all out on the steinborn, loading a barbell on the body in that way I am pretty sure is not the healthiest of things to do, also what are your feelings on the zerchers, where you rest a heavy bar on the legs-not awesome, and then hook it in the crook of the arms- more not awesome, then stand up with your back rounded, even more not awesome.

ST

[dwagman]

Hey Scott,

There are a few factors to consider regarding your point. First, please note that I didn’t go all out in the Steinborn at worlds. Even though it was a WR, I took a conservative approach and left about 25 pounds on the platform. That was due to the somewhat “strange” loading you experience in this lift. And if you review the video, then you’ll see how long it took me to get into the proper position and how I didn’t compromise that by an inch.

Also of note is that I observed 9 months of training in this lift. For the first month I didn’t exceed 135 pounds and from there only took 10-20 pound jumps per wk while still observing unload wks. Even though I ended up doing a relatively easy 360 at worlds, in training the most I ever hit prior to worlds was 345.

I did all of this due to somewhat strange loading aspect of this lift and after careful analysis thereof. I came to the conclusion that even though this lift looks dangerous, if certain technique and training considerations are properly observed, then the body is able to adapt to the stresses of this lift in a positive manner without an increased risk of injury. And in the final analysis, I believe that this lift looks more dangerous than it is—if proper lifting technique is adhered to.

The SLDL, however, does not allow the lifter to incorporate technique variations that reduce injury risk. That’s why if I had to, I’d only take a token lift and most certainly wouldn’t train it. There are many contested lifts in IAWA/USAWA that “by design” result in violations of proper technique and in doing so increase the risk of injury. In general, any lift that requires a rounded back is anything but a good choice. But that must be balanced against other technical aspects of the lift, the relative load lifted, etc. In the SLDL there is no such approach—which is the source for my conclusions.

OK, time to hit the Dungeon for some Jeffersons…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan, I do agree with what you say about the “risk factors” associated with the SLDL, and how the unnatural body positions put the lifter at higher risks for back injuries. That’s not my argument.

I’m glad to see Vince Anello mentioned here, because he is the perfect example of a lifter that appeared to deadlift in an “unnatural position”, yet still lifted world class poundages in the deadlift. I wish I could post a picture of him deadlifting here from the side, because his form always had his back “rounded”. Add in the close position of his feet and close to stiff-legged lifting style, one could easily criticize his deadlifting technique (if he was not SO GOOD AT IT!!). Why did he lift like this? I say it was because that form ENHANCED him to lift maximum poundages. Otherwise he would have trained to keep his back in that neutal plan that most advocate. I only do SLDL to help my max deadlift, otherwise I would not do them. That’s my point – Stifflegged deadlifts are VERY BENEFICIAL to enhancing ones max pull as that is very close to the actual position you end up in when doing a regular deadlift. As for that impossible shear force to calculate – the amount of weight on the bar is a big factor in this calculation. I always keep my SLDL reps at not over 70% of my max deadlift and I feel that at the lower weight it offsets the poor body position of the SL to keep the shear forces the same (or less) than a regular deadlift on the lower lumbar area. But that is just the way it FEELS to me when doing them and not a scientific assessment. Dinoman

[Tom Ryan]

Vince Anello was indeed an unusual deadlifter. I believe it was said of him that his torso seemed to shrink in length when he was doing a heavy deadlift. Lamar Gant was another great deadlifter who also almost seemed to be an anatomical illusion as he was called “plastic man” because his arms seem to become longer during a heavy deadlift.

[dwagman]

I’m a bit at a loss as to why Anello is being mentioned here. For one, this discussion is about the SLDL; Anello’s deadlift would’ve never passed as a SLDL. Second, even if his deadlift shared some common aspects with a SLDL, not all that make the SLDL such a horrible lift are present. Also to consider is that Anello’s deadlift style was horrific, regardless of how much he could pull. It’s a very ineffective thing for an athlete to do, to model him/herself after a person who executes a sport with poor technique, just because that person performs well. Research in the area of sport psychology is clear and unequivocal&#8212athletes need to use perfect technique models to improve their own performance, not models who place high, and most certainly not models who use poor technique, regardless of placing. Besides, there are plenty of great deadlifters out there to choose from who were/are just as good/better as Anello but use(d) proper technique.

A final point on Anello…unless he had anatomical limitations that would’ve prevented him from executing proper biomechanics, which is unlikely, it would be absolutely mind-boggling to think how much he could’ve pulled had he done so with proper technique.

Al, if any part of your deadlift looks like a SLDL, then that’s an indication that you have a weak link in the system. That would require some specific and targeted training to overcome. Since you’re making that point, I’m assuming that this still exists, which means the SLDS’s you’ve been doing haven’t corrected the problem. With an analysis of the physiological and anatomical requirements of a proper deadlift, and how a SLDL doesn’t match or aid those requirements, it’s not surprising that the SLDL will not enhance max deadlift strength nor the technique required for doing so. It might be worthwhile to consider a different approach.

As to shearing forces, they’re actually not that difficult to calculate&#8212and have been calculated. In the squat, backward shearing forces of the knees have been calculated to be 1,868 N (420 pound-force) at a bit over 60 degrees of knee bend and 1,800 N (405 pound-force) (500 N for forward shearing forces) at 130 degrees knee bend.* Similarly, going from a conventional style deadlift to a sumo deadlift reduces lumbar spine shearing forces by about 10%. Although there’s no data on the extent of increase in the shearing forces going from conventional deadlift to SLDL (I actually have a hard time believing that any institutional review board would sign off on research that would purposely place subjects at such grave risk of injury via performing a SLDL), I can easily imagine it being in excess of 30%. Actually, I could calculate that based on differences in center of mass alone, but that wouldn’t account for the additional shearing forces due to poor lifting mechanics from using a rounded back and locked knees.

Well, some things just don’t require research to know better; you can piece it together via basic anatomy and biomechanics. There’s simply no defensible reason for why any lifter should do SLDL’s in his/her training. If you’re confronted with having to do it in competition, now you have some solid data for making a more educated decision about your approach.

– d

*Please note that these values can change based on factors such as bar position, extent of forward movement of the knees during a sq, and position of the hips and feet. That’s why we can determine with such accuracy what constitutes a proper squat, or deadlift, or bench press…not only in terms of maximal performance, but also minimal injury potential. Here’s a biomechanics formula to always bear in mind: minimal injury risk = peak performance.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan, So are you standing behind this statement you made in the previous post?

Although there’s no data on the extent of increase in the shearing forces going from conventional deadlift to SLDL (I actually have a hard time believing that any institutional review board would sign off on research that would purposely place subjects at such grave risk of injury via performing a SLDL), I can easily imagine it being in excess of 30%.

I can easily do a mathematical calculation of the maximum shearing forces of a 600 pound deadlift being higher than the shearing forces of a 400 pound stifflegged deadlift with only a 30% fractional increase. This assumption of yours (the 30% increas) would disprove what you have been saying, assuming of course that shearing force of the lower lumbar is the primary factor that relates to injury risk of the lower back. Dinoman

[Anonymous]

Straight legged deadlifts are great for helping you pick up 400# stones at the Dino Gym, so I will keep doing them. I love SLDs and could give 2 craps less if they are harmful, they say red meat will make me not love long, cook me another steak. Although if the SLD was in a competition I wouldn’t be able to do as I cannott keep my legs straight, I am probably one of the most inflexible people alive. Long live the SLD

Jesse

[Lance Foster]

Wilbur Miller is pretty much a stiff legged puller, and going strong at almost 80 years old.

The Gloved One

[KCSTRONGMAN]

“red meat will make me not love long”

Might be one reason I WOULD give up red meat
ET

I'm the lyrical Jesse James

[Lance Foster]

[b]Quote from casinonman on March 21, 2013, 14:18[/b]
…they say red meat will make me not love long…

That’s what she said!

The Gloved One

[Anonymous]

Son of a bitch me and my crappy typing.

[dwagman]

Al, I was just making an erudite guess, and probably an underestimation. The sentence that follows is actually the important one.

Point is, you can’t just turn this into a simple mathematical problem without considering the impact of improper lifting technique (SLDL) on mechanics, but also the degree to which that weakens the lifting structures; e.g., how rounding the back, thereby flattening out the spine, weakens the strength of the spinal structures and in so doing, just by itself, without considering actual weight lifted, increases shearing forces. In fact, there is data to support the contention that the impact of poor technique is greater on shearing and compressive forces than net weight lifted.

Now that I think about it, is this what you meant when you said figuring out shearing forces isn’t that easy to do? If so, I suppose you’re right. But on the other hand, biomechanists know what to look at, have several different methods to calculate and observe these forces, and if you know all of that it’s not that big of a deal.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Al Myers]

Dan,

I may be taking too much of an mathematical engineering approach to this when thinking of shear forces. Determining a shear force on a certain metal is easy to measure as its uniform throughout – however metal is not soft tissue. Also, fatique factors come “into play” with soft tissue (like the ligaments, discs, and supporting vertebral muscles of the lower back) way more than with metal. The critical shearing force threshold of a persons back would be very variable, depending on several factors, and would vary greatly from lifter to lifter depending of anatomical structure.

Again, my argument is simply that I DO NOT think the SL deadlift causes excessive damaging forces to the back compared to other exercises and that it is a beneficial accessory exercise to enhance someones max deadlift.

Poor lifting technique is also hard to access between individuals. Poor technique for one lifter may be good technique for another. But my definition of “good technique” is the techique used to lift maximum poundages (not injury prevention) on an individual basis. The Vince Anello example illustrates this. So I don’t agree with you when you throw out “poor lifting technique” as a generality to all. But that’s because my definition of it seems to be different than yours.

I have done several all round lifts where I felt WAY MORE shearing force on my lower back than Stiff Legs have ever felt. When I did my 1000 pound Roman Chair Situp I felt more pressure on my lower vertebrae than anything I’ve ever done. In fact, I know if something “went wrong” it could have been catastrophic. But then again, if you are an All Rounder lifting safety is not on the top of your list of concerns. LOL

Al

[Chad Ullom]

I have really enjoyed this discussion. All I can offer is my own anecdotal evidence for what it’s worth. Al talked to me about doing heavy SDL in 2010. I started very light and worked my up to a 400lb triple. I don’t think it would pass in a meet, but I was really happy with it. What it did do for me right away was add about 10% to my deadlift max. I’m not a great deadlifter, but I was stuck around 500 for quite awhile, and I really think they helped bet me to 550. For what it’s worth. That was also after the herniated disc I had in 2009 that put me on the shelf for a good 6 mths

[dwagman]

Chad, I didn’t know that you had a herniated disc. I’m glad that you were able to come back and do some amazing stuff. For you, especially, where you have already suffered a herniation to one of your discs, it would be immensely important not to do SLDL’s for reasons expressed before. But allow me to illustrate it this way…

Imagine a sponge (your disc) on the table (a vertebra on the bottom of that disc), about the size of your palm (which represents the top vertebra on that disc). Now you stand directly over this sponge, place your palm on it, and while applying equal pressure, you press straight down. As a consequence the sponge experiences equal pressure all over and will flatten equally everywhere your hand is touching it. That’s what happens when you lift with a flat back (neutral spine).

Now imagine pressing down on the sponge unequally, say with more pressure directed toward your fingertips. Now what happens is the sponge will compress only under your fingers and bulge out, whereas in the opposite much smaller pressures are occurring. That’s what happens to discs when you round your back and flatten out the spine’s curvatures. Where this analogy breaks down is in the fact that your discs aren’t like a sponge in that they’ll always return to normal. With age and stress, discs can lose some of their elasticity, which you may interpret as greater potential for injury due to improper lifting technique.

You can plainly see how this can be problematic to anybody who rounds their back while under load, but especially for you, who already has a weakened structure. Now, what might be a saving grace for you is that the direction and position of the disc that’s been compromised might be such that these stresses won’t cause any immediate problems. But they likely will at some point in the future.

One more point, Chad. How do you know that your increase in dl strength is due to doing SLDL’s? Physical development goes through natural ups and downs that are related to many different factors. It could’ve just been a coincidence what you observed. Also, the way we humans are wired, you’re just making the most obvious connection, which may not necessarily be true (that’s why scientists are so careful in controlling for extraneous variables). Also consider that when you’re training, there’s a training effect. So it’s not unreasonable to assume that your deadlift would’ve gone up anyway. And if indeed some of the gain you experienced was due to the SLDL, how much of it? It’s unlikely that it was all of it. So let’s just assume that it was 20 pounds. Considering what I illustrated above, is the 20-pound gain worth the risk? That I cannot answer for you. This risk:benefit ratio is solely for you to determine.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[0722143772]

CHADER…………….+1

[61pwcc]

Dan,
Sounds to me that warming up with working sets of Side Bends(straight or bent legged), then alternating sets of Stiff Legged Sit-Ups with Stiff Legged Deadlifts would help keep the vertebral disc in shape(pun intended). Seems like a good protocol, what do YOU think?
An exercise I came up with for alleviating tightness in my upper & mid back, seems like it would be helpful as well. I call it a Reverse Deadlift, a vertical traction exercise. Here’s a video I did awhile back.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVr80ciPTE&feature=player_detailpage
Most times just getting into position seems to shift the spine.
Doing the OPPOSITE of an exercise makes you more aware of the original exercise. I’m forced to study the body position and order of exucution.
BTW, when I want to do the opposite of a Stiff Legged Deadlift, I do Sit Ups off a pullup bar. I hold on with the tops of my feet on top of the bar(good shin work). What an intenese burn in the Hip Flexors!!

[dwagman]

James, while it’s always a good idea to warm up, doing so will not reduce injury risk nor would it add any sort of “protective shield” against the impact of poor lifting mechanics.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[61pwcc]

Dan, I’m not talking about a general warm-up. This warm-up and training protocol is designed to make sure the disc don’t get lopsided due to just training the SLD. If your disc weren’t meant to deform to allow a greater ROM then why the hell do they?! It must be natural for the body to move this way. There must be things we can do to balance out the pressure(s) on the vertebral disc. If our bodies were designed to only work at the most efficient body positions, mankind would not be as far along as we are now.
What’s the science on this? IS there any science on training back and forth to balance out pressure on the disc?

[dwagman]

Jim, I’m not aware of any research looking at balancing out the pressures and stresses the discs undergo.

You’re right in that if the body can do it, it can’t be all bad, which is paraphrasing what you stated. But please also consider that there’s a difference between moving a certain way, and then moving that way under significant load, which is what the barbell provides. When you add load to the equation, then you also have to consider at what point tissues and structures will fail and what would make them more likely to fail. What you described earlier, I consider not to be harmful, but also unlikely to extend the point at which tissues can and will fail.

Also consider that even though you can move a certain way, doing so can be proper and necessary under certain conditions, while under another set of conditions it may remain necessary, but it might not be proper, or it might be improper and unnecessary. So as it relates to rounding of the back, it’s most certainly necessary and proper when you want to train your abdominals. In fact, if you do not round your back during such exercises, then you’re just training your hip flexors. While lifting something off the ground, however, rounding of the back is never proper, but also unnecessary unless the rules of a certain lift dictate that sort of execution.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Steve Angell]

Don’t really check in too much these days, and have not got the attention span to read through all these posts ;). But thought I would just mention my own experience with SLDL. In 1997 I spent the year chasing a 500lb left hand one hand deadlift. 1997 was also my best ever year as a strength athlete winning Britain’s drug free strongest man competition, and performing the best Zercher lift in history. In my first competition of 1998 I blew my back out completely, three prolapses in the lumber area. To cut a long story short, it took 2 years to recover fully. On New Years day 2000 I started performing SLDL with an empty bar. In the good old fashioned style of adding a bit more weight per workout, by the summer of 2000, I had performed 5 reps with 260kgs (572lbs) SLDL, and went to Boston and won my weight class and best over all lifter. I even wrote an article on the SLDL for Milo.

[dwagman]

Steve, I’m glad that you were able to come back from your injuries. That’s awesome.

I would like to stress to all readers, however, that it’s a dangerous thing to go by a person’s personal experience and to overlook physics, biomechanics, etc. Case in point…

When I was on a major FTX (Field Training Exercise) against the Marines, one of my fellow paratrooper’s chute didn’t deploy and he “screamed in,” as we call it, because he wasn’t able to deploy his reserve in time. He walked away from it.

So how many of you would be willing to ignore physics and jump out of a plane without a chute? Heck, after all, he apparently didn’t need one.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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