[dwagman]

You ain’t kiddin’. Fantastic! Would be awesome to see all these guys at a meet other than Postals some time soon. Keep it up y’all.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Johnny, that’s an interesting view, that those who want to progress in the Century Club will do more meets if on Record Days (RD) you can only set 5 records. That would be worth investigating. But a lot of record days follow a regular meet, which I think is a great idea since you already traveled for one meet, why not make it for two and a long weekend of lifting…and not limit the RD to only 5 lifts? But I think Thom’s absolutely correct in his observation that it’s really not worth it anymore to put on a stand-alone Record Day when you can only set 5 records.

You also mention RD vs. regular meets. Please have a closer look at how I already addressed that and that the numbers don’t really support your current perspective. Not like you aren’t allowed to change your mind, but you stated in an earlier post, “Deadlift dozen and meets like that have a LOT of checks.” (9-3-21) I interpret that to mean that they can be more work to the Records Director than a RD and that it therefore logically follows that if you limit RD’s, then you also have to limit regular meets—IF reducing the Record Director’s work-load is the main goal.

Your point about “unlimited records” might be well-taken. That’s why I proposed various alternatives to consider, and there might be others as well. As to not liking a lift or even respecting it, but doing it anyway, I don’t understand the point. Each lifter will have some lifts they like more than others, different motivations, etc. So?

As to the 10-year jump, that was something you proposed and I thought it reasonable and therefore included it in my agenda item for the membership to consider. You stated, “If anything, I would like to reduce Master groups by jumping in 10 year increments…” (Records Question forum thread, 9-3-21; emphasis added).

To me you’re absolutely correct in that, “The first level is to the organization to keeping it growing.” I believe that’s done by, a) making sure that rules don’t negatively impact fairness for the competing membership only to benefit one person such as the Records Director (whoever that may be), and b) INCREASING opportunities.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Well, Lance, this is actually all YOUR fault. <grin> You see, some time back when I raised some of these proposal issues on this Forum, you indicated I should write it up for the membership to consider at the National Meeting. Of course you were absolutely correct. We can yap back and forth about stuff till doomsday but that won’t result in anything. So now these issues go before the membership and may the chips fall where they may.

As to copy editing the Rulebook, I believe the organization could find more competent help such as a copy editor. On the other hand, if the organization feels that it can settle for less competency, I’d be willing to contribute if we can come to an agreement.

Denny, for more on my argument about the 5-lift limit, please see the Proposals thread; I just posted a response. But to address your point, IF the main reason to have a 5-lift Record Day limit is to relieve the Records Director, then that burden exists for any meet that holds more than 5 lifts. At the 2012 Worlds I set World and/or USAWA records in all 7 lifts and there may have been some double-dipping that had to be recorded, too. I believe RJ did the same. At the 2019 Worlds I also would’ve exceeded the 5-lift limit had I not elected to enter the Open division. At that same meet our current Records Director set 10 records that had to be recorded. At the recent Bench Decathlon 23 records were set and at last year’s Dl Dozen+1 30 records were set (not counting double-dipping). I suspect there would be many more examples and at the end of the day I feel that the 5-lift Record Day limit deserves to be revisited—especially if the reason for it is to relieve the Records Director—and that rule amended or rescinded. After all, contesting a ton of different lifts and providing lifters with the opportunity to set and break a ton of records is this sport’s life-blood…why would we want to drain that blood?

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Chris, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please note that your Century Club examples support my point. You see, without considering double-dipping, only 8 of Aiden’s records come from a Record Day and for Johnny it’s only 13. Heck, as memory serves Al’s done more records prior to the 5-lift limit in one Record Day meet than those two lifters combined and over many years of lifting. So these examples do not eliminate the need to reconsider the 5-lift limit for Record Days because it’s obviously unfair to suddenly change the rules.

Al, though I see your logistics point, that never required a 5-lift limit rule as the Meet Director always had—and still has—the option of limiting the number of lifts for any reason, including those you mention. But as it stands now a highly motivated Meet Director is actually being PREVENTED from putting on a great Record Day event for equally motivated and gifted athletes. That doesn’t even make sense.

As to the “burden” to the Records Director, I believe the first level of thinking ought to go toward—again—THE LIFTERS and how a change might be unfair, as is the case here. All of a sudden limiting the number of lifts a person can do on a Record Day, especially in light of the Century Club, and considering that there are other competitions throughout the year that contest more than 5 lifts, renders that limit obviously unfair but also nonsensical. And think back to the when and why you even started the Century Club. I’d argue that today’s lifters and newcomers deserve the same opportunity as in 2009 when you started that Club.

The second line of reasoning can certainly be the “burden” upon the Records Director. If, for whatever reason, the Records Director becomes overburdened with the task then proposals should be considered to relieve that burden. I offered a few examples which includes some voiced by the current Records Director. There might be others to consider but at no time should anything be incorporated that ends up placing current lifters at a clear disadvantage over past opportunities—such as a 5-lift Record Day limit—especially if it only benefits one person.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, I actually received a USAWA Forum notice with your message some time back. I had planned to answer it, but it didn’t appear on the Forum and I thought you purposely removed it. Frankly, you had good reason to because the only reason you and Chuck could like that Okie bar is because your hands are too soft and gurly for a MAN’S bar with REAL knurling. I think you should burn that bar along with your posing trunks.

Yeah, I thought this would be a good topic and had hoped for more participation. Regardless, I agree that within the lax rules for the barbell, selection amounts to lifting strategy. It’s probably less of an issue with other strength sports because there you don’t have the ability to compete with your own barbells as we do in meets like Postals and Record Breakers.

Based on Al’s and ET’s comments, I think I’m going to—depending on the lift—prevent the sleeves from turning by pouring sand in ‘em, for other lifts where spin is critical I’ll greez ‘em up like crazy, if there’s a slight bend…no worries, and maybe even use a 1” straight bar without any sleeves (remember those?).

I can’t wait to get that new Eleiko power bar…if the knurling on that thing won’t make me wince, it’s going back…remember the original Texas Power Bar? THAT was a BARBELL, Al! Okie shmokie…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Randy, I didn’t go by what IAWA-UK does regarding the bench press. It just seemed to me that if blocks of some sort are allowed under a lifter’s feet, the decision to allow it or not should not be up to each individual meet director or judge. That would lead to arbitrary and/or capricious decisions that open the door up to all sorts of potential mischief.

Regarding the Jefferson–fingers, I competed in IAWA-UK’s virtual meet in 2020 and saw that they had that lift (they call it the straddle lift). I chose that lift and had fun with it, noticed that USAWA doesn’t have it, and thought why not put it to the membership to decide on including it or not.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

While I can appreciate the effort the Record Director has to put in to keeping the record list up-to-date and accurate, I also feel that whatever our sport requires to be done needs to be done. It is patently unfair to all competitors to have allowed an unlimited number of records to be set in a Record Day and then, all of a sudden, limit that to only 5 lifts. As I stated before, this means that those individuals with 100’s of records to their name can never be replaced—now a person can’t live long enough to bump themselves to the top ranks of the Century Club. Since this represents an entirely unfair situation for current lifters, I propose the following solutions:

1. Keep the 5-lift Record Day limit:
a. But i) eliminate the Century Club list or ii) retire it and start over.
b. If USAWA keeps the current Record Day limit for the main argument stated, i.e., helping out the Records Director, then the number of lifts per ordinary meet would also need to be limited to 5 otherwise that argument is rendered nonsensical.
c. Eliminate the 5-year jump for Masters and increase it to 10-year jumps as that would significantly reduce the Records Director’s efforts (the current records list would be retired, not eliminated, and USAWA would start the list over).

2. Establish a compromise:
a. See what some of the largest number of Record Day records there were in the past. Say it was around 30; based on that limit Record Days to half of that, i.e., 15 records. Presumably a person could live long enough so that with a 15-record limit climbing high in the Century Club would be possible.
b. Limit the number of Record Days per year instead of the number of record lifts.

3. Repeal the 5-lift Record Day limit and help out the Records Director by:
a. Splitting the records list in to different categories that different people would be responsible for (e.g., record recorders) such as men, women, juniors, seniors, open, and perhaps masters in 10-year jumps or a combination thereof;
b. Splitting up the number of lifters any one record recorder would be responsible for from a given meet.
In implementing the above concept the Records Director would oversee USAWA’s “Records Division” with “Records Recorders” compiling the list.

On that note, I wanted to see how time-consuming it would be to add a fictitious lifter’s record to the list in some lift. My fictitious lifter was a Senior Class lifter named Hermann Görner, Jr. who at 110 kg did a 450-pound Deadlift—fingers—middle on 3-31-2022 at the Meatheads Ranch Classic. The process of checking the list and adding this lifter took 2 min. 24 sec. Personally, I don’t consider that an inordinately time-consuming effort and will therefore offer to volunteer as a Records Recorder if USAWA goes that route.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Thom, nice bait. Of course you know the main reasons why people use belts: They believe it protects the back from injury and allows them to lift more weight. As with so many common beliefs, this is false. All some belts do is allow a person to lift more weight—in my case 35 pounds in the SQ with a PL belt, while all belts create weaknesses in the back, misplace stressors on the back, and increase injury potential. The research is rather clear on this and explains the mechanisms as to why.

Bottom line, the only lift in which a person should wear a belt is the continental-to-belt…because without a belt you couldn’t do that lift…<snicker>…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Randy, I went to the lumber yard and got a 6′ 3×3. I then got floor flanges and 1″ pipe for my 1″ holed plates. I took measurements and cut the 3×3 down a bit so that with the floor flanges screwed in to the end of the lumber and pipe screwed in to the flanges it’s the same length as a regular barbell. I know the rules don’t call for that length, but I just wanted it that way. It works great.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Thom, I totally agree with you regarding the 5-lift limit on record day. For one, it’s totally unnecessary because according to the Rule Book the Meet Director always had the option of limiting the number of lifts or the duration of the meet. But another consideration is that it’s wholly unfair to lifters after that change passed. There are individuals in our sport who benefited from being able to rack up 100’s of records when there was no 5-lift limit. Now that there’s a lift limit those individuals’ numbers will never be able to be broken. That rule needs to be repealed, for sure.

I think your second point is rather valid, too, though not just for the injury aspect of things. What makes this sport so great is that you have lots of alternatives, even in a meet where the lifts are set (unlike a Record Day). You always have the option of not doing a particular lift, just doing a token attempt…whatever. You can still total and place. How awesome is that?

As to gear, not allowing it is a no-brainer and here’s why. Our sport is about testing the strongest people’s maximal strength. If you can only do a 505-pound 12” base squat with knee wraps, and without them your squat drops to 475, then you’re obviously not strong enough to squat 505…a no-brainer. Why, then, would a sport that tests physical strength allow lifters to wear gear that artificially inflates strength? It lacks reason and common sense. As to arguments that the gear makes a lift safer, one must turn to research in that regard and not opinion; such research renders those opinions nonsense. Arguments that make the point that the gear allows a person with an injury to still compete are also nonsense because sport is fundamentally about physical excellence and superiority. A person that’s injured is not in a state of physical excellence and providing artificial means to allow the injured person to compete anyway is against the fundamental concept of sport. The injured person will just have to suck it up and perform below his/her standard, not compete, wait until the injury has healed, or simply skip the offending lift.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Thom, if you go to the Arnold website you’ll see that it was in Santa Monica this year. I’m sure that if you dig deeper in to that website you’ll be able to see what sports were/were not represented.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Something else occurred to me regarding videos of our lifts with rules…why not have the Rule Book as a webpage? For one, that allows much easier access, particularly by phone, but it would also allow for the inclusion of videos of lifters doing a particular lift. Naturally, to make it more web friendly, the Rule Book would require some editing and code (such as direct links from the TOC to a lift or section and back), but it would make our sport more easily accessible to interested individuals.

Of course videos would require some editing as well to make them web-ready, etc. I’d be happy to help in this effort…just let me know…and I have lots of videos from lots of lifts and lifters that I took at meets I competed in. Like I said, just let me know…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

This thread got me thinking between sets…I believe it’s abundantly clear that something needs to happen to increase membership. As a first step I’d talk to ex-members and competitors. The organization should reach out to them and ask them to answer these questions with complete honesty:
1. Why are you no longer a member?
2. Why don’t you compete anymore?
3. What would it take to get you to become a member again and to compete again?

To follow, additional ideas that came to mind. I have them in two categories and the order is random. I hope this will lead to more ideas, discussions, and most importantly—action.

General
● Reject and fight the status quo.
● In competitions add some USAWA lifts that are more main-stream such as chin-ups, pull-ups, rack lifts, etc.
● De-emphasize the number of weird and dangerous lifts.
● Rewrite rules for lifts that don’t conform to the accepted norm of doing them, e.g., curls, bench dip, French curl, etc.
● Ask people active on FB, Instagram, etc. to help in advertising the sport and competitions.
● Have some themed meets around PL, WL, Strongman, etc. while adding a few all-round lifts in order to draw in those sport’s competitors.
● Live-stream meets and eventually monetize that allowing for reinvestment.
● Hold virtual meets and eventually monetize that allowing for reinvestment.
● Use Postals as an entry-free intro in to all-round and advertise the meets online, on social media sites, etc.
● Offer certificates for class winners, have awards, t-shirts, etc., for all meets.
● Include rep lifts.
● Link Forum to FB and other social media, vice versa.
● Have greater variety of lifts; certain lifts seem to repeat themselves at Nationals, Postals, etc. Why is the pull-over and press/push and one-armed C&J so frequently contested?
● Use social networking more effectively…advertise meets on other FB pages with nice posters like IAWA-UK creates.

Organization
● EB to appoint a Director of Development.
● Develop talking points and strategy that all can use and implement in recruiting; something kinda like the Army’s Code of Conduct card.
● Ask for help in implementation of growth projects.
● Pay a professional to advise on growth strategies, how to most effectively use social media, etc.
● Understand that advancing the sport is a prolonged effort that will take years.
● Add Paypal to website so that people can become members and enter meets within seconds via their phone; link that to USAWA’s FB.
● Records for Open and Senior class; the younger lifters should have the exact same opportunity to break records as Masters.
● Entry fee for all meets and reinvest.
● Eliminate age formulas. Young lifters can’t win, so why would they compete? Also, who can really comprehend why an older lifter who was out totaled by 100’s of pounds still ends up the overall winner? It just lacks common sense.
● Have the records on the website as pulldowns like USAPL and Grip Sport; PDF and Excel too difficult to access via phone.
● Make the Forum more user-friendly, Iron Mind’s Forum could be a template though there are others.
● Voting for all not just at national meeting and make agenda known weeks if not months in advance.
● Develop instructional videos of lifts w/ rules of performance and place on USAWA YouTube Channel.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman. Reason: bullets
• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by dwagman.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

ET, you’ve got some good ideas there and you’re also right about needing volunteers. This is all more easily said than done…unfortunately. And now USAWA will need volunteers in Santa Monica, eh? I competed in a lot of Muscle Beach strict curl and strongman events…they’d LOVE to see a Steinborn and Hack floorpress out there…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Guys, please note that a comparison of USAWA to the U.S.A. is not correct. USAWA’s Executive Board (EB) is not akin to the representatives we elect to office in the U.S. In fact, USAWA’s EB has very limited duties, authorities, and responsibilities. Please refer to Article 5 of the Bylaws.

Please also note that this thread is about making voting easier and as all-inclusive as possible to USAWA’s membership by not limiting a person’s vote by the requirement to be present in person at the national meeting. This is clearly an unfair requirement and excessively burdensome to what is perhaps the majority of members (just compare how many people go to nationals compared to the total number of members). If the U.S.A. functioned like that, you’d have to drive to the county seat, state capitol, and D.C. to vote in person on matters related to your county, state, and nation, respectively.

ET is most certainly correct about this not being able to be changed unless approved by a majority vote of the membership at the national meeting. I will therefore draft a proposal for consideration and we’ll see where it goes. Dave’s comment about USAWA and “life support” is quite accurate. One of the many ways in which to keep this great sport alive in the U.S. would be to make voting easier and thereby giving members a stronger voice.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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