[dwagman]

…snif…snif…now I got a tear in my eye…my Brother.

Can’t wait to hug you the next time I see you!

BUT YOU BETTER BRING YOUR RIFLE!!!! (…and ammo…you silly Marine. 🙂 )

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Yeah, you guys should’ve seen the look on ET’s face. I actually ducked after he got up from his failed attempt because I thought he’s gonna bend down, grab that barbell, and throw it through the wall.

[…note to self…if you can throw the barbell…it ain’t heavy enough to be worth lifting…]

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey Al, where in the rules do you see that starting this lift over your chest is permitted? Is that one of those elusive, invisible, unwritten “rules” you’ve talked about? hic hic

You also bring up another important physiological consideration when you talk about shoulder flexibility. Because of all the unsupported claims regarding flexibility, researchers have actually looked into it. We’ve naturally discussed these studies in detail in JOPP, and although these details shouldn’t be overlooked, a key finding is that the more flexible a muscle, the less force it can generate.

Timo, if you come from the weightlifting arm of strength sport, then it’s likely that your shoulders are very flexible and therefore you might find your strength in this lift disappointing. So Al’s advice on tightness might be even more important to you, though you might be limited due to your flexibility in how tight you can actually get.

Thom, now you know I can’t just give you my personal opinion without some exercise science stuff first…LOL

So in wearing my professional hat now, that’s not an easy question to answer as exercise choice should depend on the person’s goals, sport, and challenge areas. One shouldn’t do an exercise just to do an exercise, it must be based on a specific purpose. There are also specific functional anatomy considerations to bear in mind such as which muscles are recruited and to what extent (neurological considerations exists as well). And that brings me to another consideration—the bang for the buck…er…rep. Put another way, is the time and effort put into repping out the exercise worth the gains (not to mention time spent in learning proper execution)? Might another exercise give you much more bang for the reps you put into it while training the same muscles? Also to consider is, of course, the injury potential of the exercise in deciding whether it should be done or not.

I might point out that the above is just scratching the surface as one also needs to consider movement mechanics, point in time in the training cycle, training status, gender, etc. I should emphasize, too, that these perspectives come from the goal of attaining peak performance in sport. If peak performance isn’t really the person’s goal, then they can do whatever exercise they want and not worry too much about the finer points. Not everybody approaches training from the peak performance model or from a desire to maximize their potential, some just want to pump iron and have fun, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

So what do I personally think of this exercise? Wait, I need to switch hats here…OK, got my meathead hat on now…

What a f*^&#!g joke of an exercise!

Look, of course it’s contested at worlds this year and if you want to compete in worlds, or any other all-‘round competition that contests this lift, then you better train this lift. But come on…Personally, I have no desire to do this lift because I don’t like lifts that due to the requisite lever limitations, mechanics, and/or technical/judging considerations don’t allow me to CRANK on some serious weight. Heck, big ET was getting his ass handed to him with something like 115 pounds at the Dino Record Breakers a few weekends ago. Screw that!

It’s like the strict reverse curl. The rules of this lift prohibit you from moving any appreciable amounts of weight and throughout the range of motion you have to fight natural joint movements to be able to execute the lift within the established rules. In fact, the winner of America’s Strongest Man in the 1920’s or so, Anton Matysek, had to have his elbows tied to his waist to do this lift “properly,” but we can’t do that in USAWA/IAWA. But I’m starting to rant…

The point to me is simply this, if blood vessels aren’t about to explode under the strain of the exercise and weight, why bother with that exercise? I’ve got much more important things to do with my training time, such as LOADING UP A BARBELL AND BENDING THAT SUCKER as opposed to lifting 5-year old girl weights.

But hey, that’s just the meathead in me talking…LOL The fact is, all-’round weightlifting offers serious challenges and I really appreciate that. So what if there are some lifts that I might consider stupid.

– d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

What? That’s all ya got? C’mon now, I know you can do better than that! 🙂

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey Timo, here are the rules of the lift:

E11 STIFF ARM PULLOVER
The lifter will lay face up on the floor with the barbell held at arms length, resting on the lifting surface. The maximum sized discs for this lift are 11 inches. On the referees command the lifter will raise the bar in one continuous movement, keeping the arms straight, to a point over the chest at right angles with the body. The knees should be kept straight, and the head, shoulders, buttocks and feet should not leave the floor at any point during the lift. The lifter can have the feet held down by an aide. On completion the referee will signal to replace the bar.

As you can see, your butt cannot leave the floor. As it comes to the particulars of execution, I wouldn’t rely on the stuff you find on Youtube and many other places because they lack in scientific support. One of the main questions I would have, is whether this lift allows the lifter to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle as this would allow you to lift significantly more weight. This would occur if you were allowed to start by having the barbell at the start over your chest, essentially in the finished position. Then you lower the barbell with straight arms to the starting position and await the judges command to lift, then you explode. This is beneficial because your muscles store energy during an eccentric contraction that is then released in the concentric contraction. The problem, however, is that the longer the command to start takes, the more of that stored energy you lose. This is a prime reason, as an example, why box squats are utterly worthless in terms of building explosive strength for the squat. Another consideration is that taking advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle does take training in terms of learning the requisite neuromuscular control, especially in an odd lift like the stiff arm pullover.

So the main question, as I see it, is whether you can have the barbell handed to you, or press it yourself first, then you lower it to the starting position; or if you have to start with the barbell on the floor similar to a pull-over and push/press. If you have to do that, or if you can anticipate the judge’s start command to take long (more than 1-2 seconds), then there are other physiological considerations that you can take advantage of. You can always contact me via my Body Intellect page for more.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

You silly guys…if he can’t shoot with CHICKEN wings, how’s he gonna type a response with ’em?

I think his feathers are all ruffled and he’s trying to get the Marine Corps bulldog to fight his fight. Thing is, Thom’s just CHICKEN dinner to the bulldog…or any REAL Marine…and now he’s second-guessing his choice and hiding from the dog in the CHICKEN coop.

Of course even if he could get the bulldog to help him out, in the 82nd we used junk-yard dogs like that for target practice.

SEMPER that’s some FIne CHICKEN!

“Death From Above!”

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

What lifts do you find helpful?

James, HG is great, isn’t it?! I’m glad to see that you’re giving your talents a shot at that sport, too.

I would say, however, that your success in HG does not depend that much on which all-’round lifts you train, but instead on your throwing technique. What will be absolutely critical is that you maximize your technical proficiency in each event. To do that, however, you’ll have to have competent, valid, and reliable assessments of where you might be going wrong. And that can be tough because you’re so dependent on the knowledge and experience of others, which may not always be around to help out. And once technical errors creep in, they’re awfully hard to get rid of. Alternatively, you could employ your own video analysis and I know you know how to set up a camera. 🙂

Then you can start thinking about the strength training and conditioning aspect for HG. But as in all sports, it must be designed around your particular strengths and challenge areas. So much of what you read is about this or that routine that some dude used to do some amazing stuff, or you read shit from the proverbial self-proclaimed guru that holds no foundation in physiological fact…and most importantly does not address what I already mentioned…your own personal strengths and challenge areas.

James, put another way, if you just follow some person’s “routine” and do the lifts he does, then I guarantee you one thing…you’ll make progress. But that’s hardly the point, because our bodies adapt to any and all stimuli and if you don’t get injured, you’ll make progress. But that’s not what it’s about, at least not in my mind. To me it’s about maximized gains and peak performance.

With that said, perhaps before you embark on this new athletic challenge, the most important question to ask yourself, and answer, is how good you wanna get. If you just want to play around and do something new, then you don’t have to worry too much about the details. But if you want to get as good as you can become, then you most certainly will have to pay attention to those details.

In either event, Jim, I think you’ll have a blast from challenging your body in a different way and meeting all the wonderful people that HG typically has.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from 61pwcc on August 13, 2013, 04:39[/b]
Not ENOUGH beer perhaps Dan?

Beer is like strength. There is no such thing as enough of either.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Figures…within an hour after my previous post I hear back from my friend.

OK, so the reason I couldn’t find this research is because he didn’t publish his findings. He felt that the number of subjects was too low. And that got my memory going and I recall this being discussed at an exercise science conference.

So much knowledge…so few brain cells…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al (et al.),

I’ve searched high and low for that study you wanted to know more about but couldn’t find it. That blows my mind. Please note, however, that a lot of the training myths, and even the new stuff that people come up with, have long been dispelled by science. So the study I referred to about reverse back ext. displaying higher shearing forces on the spine than regular back ext. is at least 15 years old. I thought I remembered though, who the lead scientist was on this study. This guy is world-renown for his biomechanics work on the back and spine and I dropped him an e-mail early last week and haven’t heard back yet. But there’s still good news…

So one of my main functions at JOPP[/I] is to stay up to date on the latest scientific developments and to develop the editorial lineup. I really like that part because it allows me to implement the latest scientific findings in my training. Without that, I couldn’t do what I do.

Anyway, I’ve been working on the editorial lineup for our October issue and I’ve determined that the new research on the reverse back extension I mentioned is in fact new enough for us to review in detail. Obviously, what I stated about it earlier leaves out a great deal of important information (as a side note, one of the worst things anybody can do is to read a study’s summary and think they know something). So stay tuned to our October issue to get up-to-date credible info on the reverse back ext. and of course a heck of a lot more that’ll help you become the lifting machine you wanna be…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

ET, reading your story made for a great way to start my day. Thanks for sharing.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

When I was about 15 I worked at a auto dealership. The lead mechanic was a guy of about 5’8″, lean, and muscular, weighing probably about 175-isch, though he did no formal training whatsoever. He prided himself in being the strongest guy in the shop. Since at that time I hadn’t discovered weight lifting yet, I was in awe when I watched him lift a VW Bug engine out of the vehicle without a cherry picker. He knew it was quite a feat, too, and would always brag about it. I think he just did that to impress me because he never talked about doing it before and I never saw him do it again. We sorta had the Master – Grasshopper relationship.

Years later I saw him again at the shop, after I had quit there and after I started pumping iron. We had a great reunion and he noticed that I sorta buffed up a bit. He claimed that he was still stronger than me, though. There was a smaller engine laying on a pallet, about the size of a VW bug engine. Instead of talking, I hoisted the engine to my shoulder and walked in a circle back to the pallet and put it down. I didn’t have much control and broke the pallet, not to mention how greasy and torn up I got from various parts of the engine digging into my arms, shoulder, neck, and face. But it proved a point…and he didn’t even try it.

I actually ran into him again just 3 yrs. ago, purely accidental. He basically looked the same, just older. We recounted stories of his strength and he still believed that he was stronger than me. I didn’t argue the point.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

OK Al, I’ve had it with you.

This is the last straw!!!

I’m calling you to the Field of Honor on August 18.

Since I posted the challenge, the history of dueling rules dictate that you get to choose the type of beer.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, in a related post you mentioned that you’d “like” to believe these feats. That leads me to believe that you view them with a certain degree of skepticism. I do, too.

Is it possible that Dinnie’s dad did this feat, or even that Donald’s actually occurred? Absolutely. Is it probable that they occurred? I doubt it. Here’s my reasoning…

For one, I know from personal experience that people are pretty clueless when it comes to explaining what they observed. And this even with people who train with weights. One time, out of many, this one guy was watching my training for IPF worlds. He commented how great my deadlifts looked and how impressed he was with me pulling 700 x 2. I corrected him by stating that after I pulled 700 x 1 I pulled 655 x 2. There are many other similar examples, so I just have a hard time believing what other people believe to have witnessed. And out of the field of criminal science we know how utterly unreliable witness statements are.

But there’s more. Even though many people back then did much tougher labor than we do today, none of that daily work would even remotely equate to the type of training we do today. Let’s take the Chadernator as an example. How long did he train for the Dinnies? Wasn’t it a year or more? And that training was consistent and intense. Had he NOT trained for it, yet maintained his other training, could he have lifted the Dinnies for as many reps as he did, or even once? Doubtful; that’s why he trained specifically for it. And with all the other training he does, I find it extremely hard to believe that Dinnie’s dad would’ve been stronger than Chad in anything. How can ANY person who does not train be stronger than a person who trains regularly? Is that even possible? Yup…but highly improbable.

And even if you do train, whenever you incorporate a new and different exercise, and you train that exercise HARD, you’ll be one hurtin’ unit the next day and REAL sore 48 hours later. Imagine someone who doesn’t train regularly, like Dinnie, who just decides to pick up some rocks and walk across the bridge with them. That would be a max effort squared. Could you imagine how sore he would’ve been? He would’ve been utterly worthless at work for a wk. You think nobody would’ve talked about or noticed THAT?!

But let’s look at a few other considerations. So for one thing, guys back then didn’t
“train” the way we do. They may have worked, and that work may have made them stronger than the average person, but stronger than today’s elite strength athlete? And what about nutrition? People back then had typically very one-sided nutrition, not to mention that the quality of nutrition was not what it is today. Heck, back then it was common for drinking water to make you sick. Heil beer!

And what about the physiology back then? We know that life-expectancy was laughable compared to today and that many, many people were sickly. Sure, there were some studly people, people that were out of the norm. But they were out of the norm back then. That norm, today, would probably be 3 standard deviations below the mean for today’s standards.

For me, though like Al I’d like to believe the stories, I just have a very, very hard time doing so. I’m sure nobody knew what a hook grip was, either. And that means lifting them with a regular grip. Yeah, I don’t think so. So then, you’d have to use a strap of sorts. What would they have used back then to hold that amount of weight, other than steel? Specially made leather straps with 10 layers and 10 inches thick, perhaps. But that would’ve survived along with the stones.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Yeah, Bill Pearl is definitely one of my favorites. We’ve had some good chats when I was at Weider. Super nice man, too.

But if you don’t mind, I’d like to address a misconception. There seems to be the impression that if you don’t go too heavy in the reverse back ex., that’s OK. Unfortunately shearing forces don’t always correspond directly to the load lifted, so drawing that conclusion can be false.

Personally, I want to enter my grave one strong sonnofabitch. So I just don’t do certain lifts. So I stay away from the reverse back ex. But another reason for that would be the findings of a study published in BMC Muscularskeletal Disorders, finding that overall recruitment of the hip, lumbar, and thoracic musculature in the reverse back extension (raising legs parallel to the ground) was inferior in comparison to the regular back ex. So not only do you increase shearing forces in the reverse exercise over the regular one, but you also get less out of it. Talking about a no-brainer.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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