[dwagman]

I don’t know Jim…first you’re having phallic fantasies with my log…now you’re talking about pumping…it might be time for you to come out of the closet and admit it…you’re a closet bodybuilder.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Ok Dan, you’ve drawn me back into this discussion..

YES! I win!!! 🙂

I was intrigued by your comments on the research on the forces generated by performing Reverse Hyperextensions. Is there a place I can find these studies?

As far as I know, there was only one study done on it. I don’t remember in which journal it was published, but I’ll try to find it and post a link here.

The hamstrings are a very difficult muscle group to train because of the location of the muscle bellies and the number and locations of origins and insertions of the muscle groups.

I do believe that MOST lifters poorly train the hamstring muscles, or don’t train them at all (ie powerlifters). I also do not think performing a few lying leg curl sets is adequate.

Sadly, I’m one of those people. It’s not by choice, rather by necessity because my training set-up is extremely limited. The only work my hamstrings get is from the sq, pulls like dl and its variations, RDL, Russian curls, and back extensions. To say that my hams aren’t fully developed is the understatement of the century.

But here’s a question to which I would like to see a scientific answer: How much more would you deadlift if you trained your hams via separate exercises vs. not training them separately at all?

Dan – in these studies was a “neutral plane” established in the hyper. I often see lifters pass a level plane and cause hyperextension in the lower lumbar area, which I agree seems as an injury prone position. But my experience with the reverse hyper is that the exercise is more traction than compression on the lower back, thus it seems the “grinding forces” would be minimal???

I can’t remember to what extent the legs were extended. But this raises an important point regarding naming the lift. By calling it hyperextension, that automatically means that you should hyper extend your back/hips in performing the exercise. But if you called it a back extension, that is not automatically so. There is also the question of what functional purpose it serves to take your spine into a hyper extended position. I would argue, little, and that most health professionals would cringe at the idea of doing so.

However, I DO NOT do reverse hypers with heavy weight. I like sets of 10 for several sets. Years ago I tried to work heavy on them for a while, but stopped because I felt it was placing unnatural stretching forces on my knees. Al

Yeah, I can definitely see where the knees represent a weak link in that one. I think this is yet another perfect example of the risk:benefit ratio. I mean, what actual benefit in terms of maximal strength and USAWA performance can you expect from that exercise?

Another consideration is that if you’d do all exercise you possibly could do in terms of training your body, you’d never get out of the gym. There comes a point where the risk:benefit ratio takes on a practical dimension, too.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

ET, you raise some real good points.

So as you guys might recall from another post of mine, sport sociologists have determined that sport requires two fundamental things: 1. Resemblance, and 2. Standardization. This is obvious, but it is also in reference to SPORT.

But I think what we’re talking about here is STRENGTH. And I see a difference. If on one hand you want to see who can squat the most, it might be worthwhile to have a standardized barbell, plates, depth, type of belt, etc., and weight classes because ET doesn’t resemble me much, vice versa.

But if we want to see who is the STRONGEST, why not just go to a rail yard, junk yard, or a quarry and “lift shit.” And next year you come to my neck of the woods and we can see what we can find laying around and we’ll try to lift that. How much fun would THAT be?! And wouldn’t that also represent true, raw, at the moment strength? I can see the wheels in Al’s brain turning already…

While I understand the need for rules and standardization, there ain’t nottin fair in COMBAT. And fundamentally, to me, developing raw strength is about taking my body to combat. But what do I know…I’m just a dinosaur…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

You silly wabbits…none of you guys are strong enough to lift my “log.”

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Yeah, Jim, that would be a way to do both knee flexion and hip extension. But there are two issues that I would like to point out.

The first is that some years back, not too long after Louie Simmons “invented” the reverse hyper exercise, a well-respected Canadian exercise physiologist and biomechanist and a team of his colleagues decided to research what goes on in the spine when you do a reverse back extension. They used all sorts of sophisticated and cool equipment and learned that the way the forces are applied to the joints due to the movement mechanics, the shearing forces on the spinal joints (translation: grinding) were immensely high when compared to “normal” hip extension. When shearing forces increase to that extent, it invites injury, or at the very minimum increases the risk of injury quite a bit. What’s scary about that, is that you won’t do a reverse hyper and get injured immediately. You might actually feel pretty good afterwards. However, you’re likely to cause microinjury that’s asymptomatic. Then, one day, you do a Steinborn and one of your vertebra end up flying against the wall across your Dungeon. And you naturally think that you hurt yourself doing the Steinborn, when in fact the Steinborn was simply the final straw that broke big Jim’s back.

The second consideration is that if you first do a leg curl, then end up doing a hip extension, you’ve severely decreased the lever arm. This means that on one hand, you’re likely reducing the shearing forces on your lower back rather drastically. But on the other hand, in doing so, how much “training” are your muscles (hip extensors) getting out of that? Not much which would lead me to question the utility of doing so.

I’d be interested in you sharing your thoughts on the above. I gotta go and train chins, 1-armed chins, db rows, and a whole host of grip work. It’s the way I end my training wk. Maybe one of these days I’ll be able to clean and press a 45 by the hub. MAN-O-MAN…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

See Al, and that’s PRECISELY what I’m talking about. I would’ve tried to revive the cow. LOL

Heil science!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Chad, you hit the nail on the head. It’s the ass, man, it’s the ass.

You see, a lot of people just talk out of their ass. Just like that stiff leg dl guy who claims to know something about an exercise, apparently just because he has some experience in it…just like me when I claim to know just as much about dogs as Al who has earned a doctorate in veterinary medicine, just because I have experience with dogs. You seem to get how ludicrous my claim is…but dude’s claim(s) about the sldl are equally ludicrous because he doesn’t seem to have the requisite education to make the claim(s) that he does. I’ll give an example…

To claim that there’s ONE best exercise for the hamstrings is simply idiotic. First, what is the hamstring? You might think that’s a silly question, but the back of the thigh is comprised of four different muscles, each with similar and different functions. Two of the large muscles back there, the semitendinosus and the biceps femoris, while they both extend the thigh at the hip (a stiff leg dl movement) and both flex the knee, the biceps femoris also rotates the thigh.

So let me ask, how can there be ONE best exercise for the hamstrings? That would only be possible if that exercise extends the hips while at the same time bending the knees. Now there’s a thought. LOL Indeed, dude even talks about this, that you need to do leg curls for the hamstrings. So clearly, the sldl cannot be the best exercise for the hams…HE just said so. But what about the rest of the muscles in the back of the thigh and what about the remaining functions of those muscles? How could one exercise cover all of that? It can’t!

The point is, nobody on this forum would even dream of bringing their dog to me should he take ill; you’d take him to Al who’s a DVM. It’s a no-brainer. But the same holds true for human anatomy and exercise physiology. Why listen to some person who has some experience lifting weights but doesn’t understand the finer points of exercise science? To me, that’s a no-brainer, too. Though the comic relief from YouTube exercise vids shouldn’t be overlooked.

All I’m trying to do with my posts and other writings is to illustrate to you guys that how to train, what exercises to choose, etc., is far more complex than just feeling something while you train and interpreting it as meaning X, Y, or Z, or just rehashing age-old myths and conjecture in a new and fresh package. Over and over and over again science has demonstrated that those layperson’s interpretations are wrong. So let’s try not to get our heads stuck in the ass. 🙂

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

I will actually agree to everything he states…

…if you guys agree that I know at least as much as Al does about dogs—if not more. After all, I’ve had dogs all my life and that experience is something that Al with his school knowledge simply cannot match.

Sorry for picking on you, Al. I’ll understand if you call me to the Field of Honor in a few wks.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Thom, though you’re absolutely correct, I hold more of a sniper’s mentality. You start dropping people–one shot one kill–and the enemy doesn’t know where it’s coming from, that’ll really fudge with their heads.

So we doin’ The Challenge on Saturday or Sunday after lifting?

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

You DO wanna touch it, eh? hihihi

Al, this plate is actually pretty well repaired and holding up nicely. It’s the remaining Eleikos that have a split, of varying sizes, where the rubber is in contact with the platform. On about two of them, that split goes deep and has even internally separated from the outer wall.

I’m sorta sentimental about my bumpers and you’d find it difficult to convince me to let any one of them go. Besides, I have to ask, considering the fact that these plates probably still have, what you would consider “KU skank” on them, why would you want them in your K-State infested gym?

If you’d like, we can continue this via e-mail…

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

…I’m confused…I don’t understand…first loving KU…now this…WHAT’S GOING ON??????

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Looks like I’m gonna have to stir things up again. Sorry guys. 🙂

I operated under the assumption that the Postal series has a different set of rules as it pertains to judging. Now I find out from Al that there’s only ONE set of rules governing judging in USAWA. Though I agree with Chad and ET, there’s something else to consider.

Is it not a slippery slope to disregard any aspect of the rule book regardless of rationale? Here, the rationale seems to be that Postals are judged in violation of the rule book “because it’s the way it was done.” OK, so what then would prevent somebody from disregarding any other aspect of the rule book, from equipment worn and used to the execution of a lift, to drug detection, and anything in between based on some sort of other whimsy rationale?

To me the bottom line is simply this: The rule book exists in order to provide fair and reliable competition to all who choose to compete in all-round. Moreover, sport sociologists have determined that sport requires resemblance and standardization. By violating standardization&#8212having and enforcing standardized rules across all competitions&#8212you’re violating one of the fundamental aspects that defines sport.

So what’s the solution? Simple…include a different set of judging rules for Postals in the rule book&#8212that may or may not include the rationale for doing so&#8212and make it official. At least when that’s done the organization took the proper steps to make it legal and it doesn’t open the door to other ways in which to rationalize away why other aspects of the rule book can be violated.

Al, you need a second fishing trip now?

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Econo bumpers?

Al, oh Al, do you really think I’d slip one of those cheap China plates over my TEXAS POWER BAR???? LOL

But seriously, I do realize that it’s a rare plate. I was hoping that I’d get two of them, but the rest of them were in good condition and the S&C coach wouldn’t let them go.

And I know you just wanna touch it…hehehe…but since that’s not possible, here’s a picture of the front and back of the plate. Note where I siliconed the back of it at the bottom of the second image.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from KCSTRONGMAN on July 25, 2013, 09:41[/b]
Ask John Obrien

Eric, I can’t recall meeting John. Do you have contact info?

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey Thom, just bought some of those big ole silhouette targets. Here’s a thought…only head shots count toward a score. 🙂

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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