[dwagman]

Steve, I’m glad that you were able to come back from your injuries. That’s awesome.

I would like to stress to all readers, however, that it’s a dangerous thing to go by a person’s personal experience and to overlook physics, biomechanics, etc. Case in point…

When I was on a major FTX (Field Training Exercise) against the Marines, one of my fellow paratrooper’s chute didn’t deploy and he “screamed in,” as we call it, because he wasn’t able to deploy his reserve in time. He walked away from it.

So how many of you would be willing to ignore physics and jump out of a plane without a chute? Heck, after all, he apparently didn’t need one.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Jim, I’m not aware of any research looking at balancing out the pressures and stresses the discs undergo.

You’re right in that if the body can do it, it can’t be all bad, which is paraphrasing what you stated. But please also consider that there’s a difference between moving a certain way, and then moving that way under significant load, which is what the barbell provides. When you add load to the equation, then you also have to consider at what point tissues and structures will fail and what would make them more likely to fail. What you described earlier, I consider not to be harmful, but also unlikely to extend the point at which tissues can and will fail.

Also consider that even though you can move a certain way, doing so can be proper and necessary under certain conditions, while under another set of conditions it may remain necessary, but it might not be proper, or it might be improper and unnecessary. So as it relates to rounding of the back, it’s most certainly necessary and proper when you want to train your abdominals. In fact, if you do not round your back during such exercises, then you’re just training your hip flexors. While lifting something off the ground, however, rounding of the back is never proper, but also unnecessary unless the rules of a certain lift dictate that sort of execution.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

James, while it’s always a good idea to warm up, doing so will not reduce injury risk nor would it add any sort of “protective shield” against the impact of poor lifting mechanics.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, Ruth and I are planning to go on Saturday, too. We should set up a live stream to watch each other. LOL

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Here’s a page out of Joe Weider’s Bodybuilding System I thought you guys might appreciate:

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

In the late 90’s when I was Joe’s Health & Science Editor (for M&F, to be more accurate), he came out with an updated edition of Joe Weider’s Bodybuilding System. It’s a book with several muscular charts and exercise charts in a hard case cover. Joe gave me a copy of it and I haven’t looked at it since then. I thought that ya’ll might be interested in how his principles brake down:

– 9 Principles To Help You Plan Your Training Cycle
– 12 Principles To Help You Arrange Your Workout
– 13 Principles To Help You Perform Each Exercise

What’s important to me, as an exercise scientist, is what I mentioned before in the discussion on Stiff-legged deadlifts; Joe was a pioneer in the weight training and bodybuilding realm. He wasn’t the only one, but he was a key player. As such, and due to his training “guesses” he provided the impetus for those with equal interest, but with the skills of a scientist, to investigate the truth of these hypotheses. Many of his (and other’s) principles have been proven wrong. This doesn’t at any level diminish Joe’s intellect or his insights; the simple fact is that knowledge advances due to science and the human race and society is better off for it. Joe understood this, and I had mentioned in the SLDL discussion, when he learned that I had found one of his principles to be wrong, he embraced that and wanted to know more. Perhaps for that, more than anything else, I hold him in the highest regard because he was not afraid to admit to being wrong and he was willing to learn, even at that later stage in his life and even after he had achieved the standing he had achieved in his field of passion and professionally. For that, I have the deepest respect for him and he reminded me every day that I worked there, and still today, that I should never be afraid to admit to being ignorant and change my approach when I discover a more scientifically proven one. Frankly, in my estimation, he’d be the last guy who’d want people to train the way people used to train, hold on to old ways, etc.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Wow, that saddens me. He was a great guy. He had unbelievable passion for lifting and bodybuilding. He was the only guy at Weider when I was there who showed any true passion for lifting, besides myself. We hit it off from day 1.

He’d come by my office weekly, all excited, drag me to his office to show me something, which was inevitably pictures of old timers lifting stuff. I knew a lot of these guys, and their history, which he appreciated. I remember this one he showed me of himself, a mere 13 or 14-years old, doing a clean and jerk, with his shirt off, outdoors, skinny as all heck. Back then (late 90’s) he was also still training all the time. One day I saw him in the garage, limping as he left his car. I walked up to him, put my arm around his shoulders, and go, “Joe, you hurt yourself squatting?” He looked at me all indignant like, told me about a foot surgery he had, and he was all pissed off because he had to do leg presses instead of squats the evening before. I could go on…

RIP Joe.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Chad, I didn’t know that you had a herniated disc. I’m glad that you were able to come back and do some amazing stuff. For you, especially, where you have already suffered a herniation to one of your discs, it would be immensely important not to do SLDL’s for reasons expressed before. But allow me to illustrate it this way…

Imagine a sponge (your disc) on the table (a vertebra on the bottom of that disc), about the size of your palm (which represents the top vertebra on that disc). Now you stand directly over this sponge, place your palm on it, and while applying equal pressure, you press straight down. As a consequence the sponge experiences equal pressure all over and will flatten equally everywhere your hand is touching it. That’s what happens when you lift with a flat back (neutral spine).

Now imagine pressing down on the sponge unequally, say with more pressure directed toward your fingertips. Now what happens is the sponge will compress only under your fingers and bulge out, whereas in the opposite much smaller pressures are occurring. That’s what happens to discs when you round your back and flatten out the spine’s curvatures. Where this analogy breaks down is in the fact that your discs aren’t like a sponge in that they’ll always return to normal. With age and stress, discs can lose some of their elasticity, which you may interpret as greater potential for injury due to improper lifting technique.

You can plainly see how this can be problematic to anybody who rounds their back while under load, but especially for you, who already has a weakened structure. Now, what might be a saving grace for you is that the direction and position of the disc that’s been compromised might be such that these stresses won’t cause any immediate problems. But they likely will at some point in the future.

One more point, Chad. How do you know that your increase in dl strength is due to doing SLDL’s? Physical development goes through natural ups and downs that are related to many different factors. It could’ve just been a coincidence what you observed. Also, the way we humans are wired, you’re just making the most obvious connection, which may not necessarily be true (that’s why scientists are so careful in controlling for extraneous variables). Also consider that when you’re training, there’s a training effect. So it’s not unreasonable to assume that your deadlift would’ve gone up anyway. And if indeed some of the gain you experienced was due to the SLDL, how much of it? It’s unlikely that it was all of it. So let’s just assume that it was 20 pounds. Considering what I illustrated above, is the 20-pound gain worth the risk? That I cannot answer for you. This risk:benefit ratio is solely for you to determine.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, I was just making an erudite guess, and probably an underestimation. The sentence that follows is actually the important one.

Point is, you can’t just turn this into a simple mathematical problem without considering the impact of improper lifting technique (SLDL) on mechanics, but also the degree to which that weakens the lifting structures; e.g., how rounding the back, thereby flattening out the spine, weakens the strength of the spinal structures and in so doing, just by itself, without considering actual weight lifted, increases shearing forces. In fact, there is data to support the contention that the impact of poor technique is greater on shearing and compressive forces than net weight lifted.

Now that I think about it, is this what you meant when you said figuring out shearing forces isn’t that easy to do? If so, I suppose you’re right. But on the other hand, biomechanists know what to look at, have several different methods to calculate and observe these forces, and if you know all of that it’s not that big of a deal.

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

I’m a bit at a loss as to why Anello is being mentioned here. For one, this discussion is about the SLDL; Anello’s deadlift would’ve never passed as a SLDL. Second, even if his deadlift shared some common aspects with a SLDL, not all that make the SLDL such a horrible lift are present. Also to consider is that Anello’s deadlift style was horrific, regardless of how much he could pull. It’s a very ineffective thing for an athlete to do, to model him/herself after a person who executes a sport with poor technique, just because that person performs well. Research in the area of sport psychology is clear and unequivocal&#8212athletes need to use perfect technique models to improve their own performance, not models who place high, and most certainly not models who use poor technique, regardless of placing. Besides, there are plenty of great deadlifters out there to choose from who were/are just as good/better as Anello but use(d) proper technique.

A final point on Anello…unless he had anatomical limitations that would’ve prevented him from executing proper biomechanics, which is unlikely, it would be absolutely mind-boggling to think how much he could’ve pulled had he done so with proper technique.

Al, if any part of your deadlift looks like a SLDL, then that’s an indication that you have a weak link in the system. That would require some specific and targeted training to overcome. Since you’re making that point, I’m assuming that this still exists, which means the SLDS’s you’ve been doing haven’t corrected the problem. With an analysis of the physiological and anatomical requirements of a proper deadlift, and how a SLDL doesn’t match or aid those requirements, it’s not surprising that the SLDL will not enhance max deadlift strength nor the technique required for doing so. It might be worthwhile to consider a different approach.

As to shearing forces, they’re actually not that difficult to calculate&#8212and have been calculated. In the squat, backward shearing forces of the knees have been calculated to be 1,868 N (420 pound-force) at a bit over 60 degrees of knee bend and 1,800 N (405 pound-force) (500 N for forward shearing forces) at 130 degrees knee bend.* Similarly, going from a conventional style deadlift to a sumo deadlift reduces lumbar spine shearing forces by about 10%. Although there’s no data on the extent of increase in the shearing forces going from conventional deadlift to SLDL (I actually have a hard time believing that any institutional review board would sign off on research that would purposely place subjects at such grave risk of injury via performing a SLDL), I can easily imagine it being in excess of 30%. Actually, I could calculate that based on differences in center of mass alone, but that wouldn’t account for the additional shearing forces due to poor lifting mechanics from using a rounded back and locked knees.

Well, some things just don’t require research to know better; you can piece it together via basic anatomy and biomechanics. There’s simply no defensible reason for why any lifter should do SLDL’s in his/her training. If you’re confronted with having to do it in competition, now you have some solid data for making a more educated decision about your approach.

– d

*Please note that these values can change based on factors such as bar position, extent of forward movement of the knees during a sq, and position of the hips and feet. That’s why we can determine with such accuracy what constitutes a proper squat, or deadlift, or bench press…not only in terms of maximal performance, but also minimal injury potential. Here’s a biomechanics formula to always bear in mind: minimal injury risk = peak performance.

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey Scott,

There are a few factors to consider regarding your point. First, please note that I didn’t go all out in the Steinborn at worlds. Even though it was a WR, I took a conservative approach and left about 25 pounds on the platform. That was due to the somewhat “strange” loading you experience in this lift. And if you review the video, then you’ll see how long it took me to get into the proper position and how I didn’t compromise that by an inch.

Also of note is that I observed 9 months of training in this lift. For the first month I didn’t exceed 135 pounds and from there only took 10-20 pound jumps per wk while still observing unload wks. Even though I ended up doing a relatively easy 360 at worlds, in training the most I ever hit prior to worlds was 345.

I did all of this due to somewhat strange loading aspect of this lift and after careful analysis thereof. I came to the conclusion that even though this lift looks dangerous, if certain technique and training considerations are properly observed, then the body is able to adapt to the stresses of this lift in a positive manner without an increased risk of injury. And in the final analysis, I believe that this lift looks more dangerous than it is—if proper lifting technique is adhered to.

The SLDL, however, does not allow the lifter to incorporate technique variations that reduce injury risk. That’s why if I had to, I’d only take a token lift and most certainly wouldn’t train it. There are many contested lifts in IAWA/USAWA that “by design” result in violations of proper technique and in doing so increase the risk of injury. In general, any lift that requires a rounded back is anything but a good choice. But that must be balanced against other technical aspects of the lift, the relative load lifted, etc. In the SLDL there is no such approach—which is the source for my conclusions.

OK, time to hit the Dungeon for some Jeffersons…

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Wow, got some comments already. You guys don’t waste any time. 🙂

Let me see if I can’t briefly get to all of you in this post. Jim, you first…

From this post, and previous posts of yours, I understand the philosophy that you embrace. You basically want to be a strong dude in everything you do and you believe that you can only accomplish this by challenging yourself in all sorts of ways. You’re the King of functional lifting. But please bear in mind, that even with your philosophy, proper biomechanics should not be compromised. By definition, the SLDL compromises every aspect of what constitutes the proper way to lift a barbell off the ground.

Now, my main bone to pick with you regards your statement about as long as you don’t feel pain, it’s OK. Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth. You see, more often than not, that rep you did that “caused” your injury was likely not the cause. Instead, insult to your tissues has added up over time until pop goes the weasel. Please take this to heart. I’d hate to see your passion for lifting being short-lived.

Also, I don’t want anybody to think that I’m bad-mouthing the old timers. The fact is that these guys were pioneers and flew by the bottom of their seats. They were also in one way or the other responsible for the birth of the scientific field of study known as exercise physiology. As much as we should respect the old timers, we should also accept where they were wrong. I remember publishing an article in Muscle & Fitness about research showing how wrong one of the Weider Principles was. I was told by editorial that we couldn’t publish it. Then Joe called me in his office. We talked about why that one principle of his was wrong. Then he asked me about other principles that might be wrong and wanted to know why they were wrong. He appreciated being enlightened, it was only the others that had a problem with what I wrote. Needless to say, the story ran.

Tom, would you be OK with me changing “great” to “good?” Perhaps I erred in adding a personal observation in an otherwise scientific analysis. But anecdotally, I have never seen an OL’er who tried his hand at PL who didn’t end up deadlifting a ton and was as good, or even better, than most of the PL’ers in the competition. And at the same token, I’ve never seen any of the guys or gals at the OTC do SLDL’s.

As to high pulls, I’m basically talking about a power clean without an actual clean. Replacing the SLDL with a high pull would satisfy all of the scientific requirements to generate more power, which is necessary for a big pull off the ground, while satisfying all of the biomechanical requirements necessary to pull in performance-enhancing and healthy manner.

Al, please consider that in my post I listed several reasons that add up to my conclusion that the SLDL must die. It’s the combination of all of these factors that make this lift one of the most dangerous lifts that a person can do. The rounding of the back (getting out of neutral spine) is but one factor. Granted, it’s an important factor because a rounded back holds ill effects on the entire spine, but it’s still but only one of the factors I mentioned. So while stone lifting requires an immense rounding of the back and shoulders, the lifter still bends his knees and still lifts the stone with the center of mass as close to the coronal plane as possible. So in a general sense, stone lifting could be considered healthier than the SLDL.

You ask whether it’s not important to build round back strength. I would argue that it’s more important to build the isometric strength necessary to keep your back neutral. That would be the key, not performing exercises that end up rounding your back and in doing so increase injury risk. Also, when you end up increasing your isometric strength, then your back will not end up in such a pronounced rounded position, regardless of how much you might be lifting.

Yes, indeed, the body has tremendous adaptive abilities. But the adaptive abilities should be stressed in the proper execution of exercises—and while staying away from those exercises that do not allow for that. As it specifically relates to the spine, note that we’re talking about short, tiny ligaments that hold each vertebra together. There’s not much room for error there. Also, when you stretch a muscle too much, as you would in performing a SLDL via rounded shoulders and rounded back, then the muscle lacks the ability to produce force. This is for mechanical reasons where the components of fibers that cause contraction are stretched out so much, that they have a hard time shortening. Plenty of research has been reviewed in JOPP demonstrating the how and why of why stretching results in less force production (acutely).

I’m sorry guys, in light of all of the things that make the SLDL a poor exercise choice, including all of the much better options we all have to choose from, the risk:benefit ratio for doing the SLDL is so piss poor, that this exercise just needs to die. I’m locked and loaded!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

NICE!

That hub lift is crazy-AWESOME!

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

AWESOME!

…but how did Al know the tractor weighed 3,000 pounds? Who’s to say it didn’t weigh 4,000?

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

I’m gonna refer to him as “Your Lowness,” just to make sure that squats and related lifts are judged properly. 🙂

-d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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