[dwagman]

I’m sooo disappointed&#8212about the loin cloth, that is.

Al, I’m wondering if we’re not making an assumption about the Hocke lift that’s incorrect. It seems that we’re assuming that the lift starts with the weight on the ground. But what evidence is there for that? Note that Willoughby’s description only states: “The ‘Hacke’ lift is performed by knee-bending on the toes while holding a barbell with the hands together behind the hips…” This description makes no mention as to how the barbell ended up in the lifter’s hands. Is it not possible that the lifter backed up to a rack that held the barbell, grasped it, then took a step out of the rack, and then did the Hocke lift?

The place I train at in Germany is a weightlifting club that was founded in 1907. Back then, it was actually a weightlifting and wrestling club and the office has some really cool old pictures of “the guys.” The weightlifters are largely gone, the wrestlers are definitely gone, and there are but a few hardcore guys left. This gym is rather primitive and has very old equipment. Among the equipment there are these very old free-standing racks at different heights. They amount to a tripod upon which you can place a barbell, about at knee height, another half way up the thigh. I could see such tripods being used back then to hold the barbell for curls, shrugs, etc.&#8212and perhaps the Hocke lift.

Allow me to digress…Nearby is a McFit Fitness-Studio, basically the German version of 24 Hr. Fitness. When the guys at my gym saw me train the one-armed c&j they wanted to make bets for a case of Bier about how long it would take the McFit people to kick me out if I did it over there. I said that within 3 reps some pencilneck with shiny muscles would run up to me and tell me I couldn’t do that there. We never followed through with this, maybe next time…

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Darnit Chad, you beat me to it. But I’d like to submit another lift that seems nearly impossible to me and impressive as all heck.

Hack was said to have cleaned 231.5 pounds. Then he somehow got the barbell centered into his right hand and jerked it overhead with only one hand. He did that weighing 190 pounds when he was only 20 years old (April 1898).

Is that crazy or what? Might this be a new USAWA lift?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

OK Al, so it wasn’t his jumping feats with weights. How ’bout his one-armed snatches with 190+? That would exceed any of today’s USAWA/IAWA records regardless of weight class.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, you referring to his jumping feats? He apparently did a back somersault with a 60-pound db in each hand.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

I bit of trivia-Who was the Iowan to beat George Hackenschmidt like an impudent wife?

Was that Gotch? Hack really didn’t seem to like American wrestlers. But when Gotch kicked his ass, he had to change his mind. They had a rematch and Gotch whooped him again. But didn’t those fights back then last for hours? Do you know what became of Gotch?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Al, I’m going to look forward to your explanation. Talking about this has caused me to dust off my Superathletes book, one of my prized possessions.

If I may provide a photographic tip, you should have your model perform the lift wearing the sort of “shorts” Hack wore. hehehe

Yes, Hocke is also a German word. It refers to what we might consider crouching down or when you without weight go into a deep squat where your hamstrings touch your calves. You know, the sort of “move” you do when you poop in the woods.

Since you sort of hock down when you do a Hack sq/dl, it’s also feasible that this is where the name came from. But I would have to guess no on that one, too. The reason I say this is because Hackenschmidt didn’t seem to have spent a lot of time in Germany at all and because he lived primarily in London. With that in mind, and of course without knowing for sure, I would guess that people would just see him do stuff, whether he was the first to do it or not, and they’d probably go something like, “Hey, what’s Hack doing there? Let’s try that…” and then they just ended up calling the lift the Hack-whatever.

Regardless, personally, I like thinking of it as being a reference to Hackenschmidt. The dude was stout as all heck and had a body that people today, even when saucing, couldn’t get. And let’s not even talk about his strength and dominance in wrestling. He was from an era when men were men and it motivates me to do a Hack when thinking of him as opposed to my heel. Get my drift?

d

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Well, I sure don’t want to give ET a headache, but Al I just have to disagree here.

I don’t think that the rules have to use scientific terms to be valid and reliable. As it relates to this discussion, they could simply state that the bar height shall equal forearm length as measured from the elbow to the bottom of the palm. And that would make it objective (who cares about half an inch error in measurement one way or the other) and in my view this is as fair to every lifter as possible. The downside is that it would require a huge amount of blocks to meet every possible height and that doesn’t seem practical from a meet director’s perspective.

So what’s the next line of reasoning? This is an OTSM lift and as such, perhaps the execution should be based precisely on what they used to do. What was the height from which Hackenschmidt did this lift? Whatever that is, or as nearly an approximation that we can get, that’s what USAWA will use. End of story. Some will excel at this lift, others won’t…and that’s just what sport is all about.

But what distresses me actually the most, is why Al is avoiding my beer question. Does anybody know? Is Al watching his figure and abstaining as of late?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey Ben, those were the days. 🙂 Loved Kevin’s barn! Wonder what that boy is up to. I bet my grip is stronger than his at this point. I should call him and let him know. LOL

Al, I don’t think that measuring forearms adds subjectivity, rather objectivity. Besides, how is doing that any different than determining bar height in the Anderson SQ? There’s a precedent.

But in reading between the lines of your post, and considering the OTSM aspect, perhaps there just is no easy answer. OTSM were dudes with specific strengths that they exploited. A lot of these strengths were leverage and body type dependent, meaning that Hack excelled in certain things that others couldn’t, vice versa. With that in mind, perhaps the Hack Floor Press is simply one of those lifts not everybody can do, not just not do well (as the People’s DL where the bar is fixed at 18″ and everybody can lift from that height, but some can just do it better than others). Perhaps that’s just part of the sport and shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as a negative. After all, there are many USAWA meets that I don’t compete in because I don’t want to do the lifts for one reason or another (enjoyment, injury potential, etc.). That doesn’t diminish the sport or the organization, it just makes me choose, just like when I go get coffee…I only buy the kind I like.

With all that in mind, perhaps your 15″ block idea is the best. At least that would allow everybody who’s interested in doing this lift to be able to train it under the exact conditions found in competition.

Regardless of what you decide, it won’t impact my decision whether to head Dino way or not. But how much beer you have for afterwards will!

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

The stretch reflex is highly related to the amortization phase in muscle contractions. The amortization phase is the time taken for a muscle to switch from an eccentric contraction to a concentric contraction. Picture yourself doing a squat. As you descend into the hole, your muscles contract eccentrically. Then as you blast out of the hole they contract concentrically. The shorter the time period between hitting the hole and blasting out of it, the more stored energy your muscles release and the more weight you can move. The longer time you spend in the hole, the more stored energy your muscles lose and the less weight you can move. This is the main reason why box squats are pretty worthless for increasing squat strength. And this isn’t my personal opinion, this is scientific fact. We reviewed several studies in past issues of JOPP (http://www.jopp.us) specifically about this.

So you can see, although a stretch reflex type action could take place in the Hack Floor Press, how much of that would be realized depends on how much time there is between lowering of the weight and pressing it. Conceivably, if the lifter is required to hold the position after lowering for 2-3 seconds, then around 90% of stored energy would be lost and this would not be a concern.

Hope you guys can appreciate a lil’ science talk. Nothing wrong with training the muscle between the ears, too, eh?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

That’s a really good point, ET. I was also thinking that if the barbell would be touching my chest as I lie on the floor, how would I get my elbows underneath the barbell? I’d have to first do a hybrid French curl or pull-over, then press the barbell.

So maybe the rule could read “…barbell height off the floor is to be no more than 1-2 inches more than the lifter’s forearm length.” I’m leaving a margin of error in there because I can imagine that it would be nearly impossible to have blocks of all sorts of sizes to meet every lifters forearm length, or by 1″ increments, etc.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

OK DinoAl, how ’bout having it similar as the Peoples DL in that it’s specified how far off the ground the barbell shall be? With regular plates the barbell is about 9″ off the ground. Of course Dino’s wouldn’t fit under that, so one could stipulate that the bar shall be, say, 15″ off the ground. Of course some lifters will be at an advantage, while others at a disadvantage, but that’s really no different than most lifts.

Alternatively, it could be stipulated that the barbell shall be, say, between 1″-2″ off the lifter’s chest. That way, when using blocks, there’s a margin of error that can be played with since it would likely be rather hard to be specific (see Anderson sq…”not over two thirds the height of the lifter” meaning that it could be somewhat less).

Then again, the current suggestion, where the barbell shall touch the lifter’s chest is pretty clear. But then, what about the smaller lifter such as lighter weight class men, teens, women for whom the barbell with 45’s wouldn’t touch the chest, or where 35s/25s would be too small?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

[b]Quote from dinoman on November 27, 2012, 15:37[/b]
…The bar height will be that of touching the chest for each lifter.

So how will this be adjusted for smaller lifters for whom a barbell loaded with 2 45’s won’t touch their chest? Will you raise the lifter somehow or would you use smaller plates, such as 35s or 25s?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Chad, that’s AWESOME!

So did you do 25 reps in one or two sets? LOL

And one heck of a way for Al to show some serious grit.

As to Kaz, I checked my poster he gave me with all of his records and stuff. I got the stones messed up. In the late 80’s he was the first guy to lift all of the McGlashen stones in competition. No mention of the Dinnies.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

There are two points I’d like to make.

1. Al’s original question regarded the wording of the rule, which states: Competitions are to be organized for both men and women. This wording is ambiguous, allowing both sides to make a valid argument for their point of view. If USAWA and IAWA want to limit confusion, then this should be reworded to either read “Competitions are to be organized separately for men and women,” or “Competitions are to be organized combining men and women.”

Of course there may be times when a meet director might actually want to find out who the overall best lifters are, regardless of gender. In that case, how ’bout rewording it to read “Competitions can be organized to contest men and women either separately and/or combined”?

2. Several of you questioned the 33% calculation for women. That’s certainly a valid concern. But if this is to be evaluated, then it should be based on some sound science and statistical analysis. And if that’s done, then all-round weightlifting also needs to look at the validity of all of the percentage adjustments by age. There’s certainly no science out there that supports the contention that a person loses 1% in performance per year starting at age 40, at least as it relates to strength and power, there is some support for this as it relates to endurance sports. Well, there is also scientific evidence showing that power production decreases first with advanced age, followed by force production (strength) some time down the road. Regardless, if the membership feels that a rational assessment regarding the womens percentage allowance is in order, then the same should be done for other percentage adjustments.

I suppose the main question, then, is whether this can of worms, er, chalk box, should be opened at all. Any thoughts?

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[dwagman]

Hey, didn’t Kaz lift the Dinnies, too? I seem to recall that he lifted them but couldn’t walk with ’em. If memory serves, that was in the late ’80’s. So he’d be another American to add to the list.

Dan

—
Dan

For Body Intellect Brochure click here: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0fcsokZWooW_1B1uZmL1AI5fA#BI-DW

Those who are enamored of practice without science
are like a pilot who goes onto a ship without rudder or
compass and never has any certainty to where he is going.
Leonardo Da Vinci; 1452-1519

[Author]

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