[Tom Ryan]

Don’t everybody all jump in at once with your answers to my quiz question. 🙂 I’ll post the answer in a day or two if all of you give up.

[Tom Ryan]

Scott,

I think one of the problems with American lifters over the years is that they have been influenced by coaches who know less about weightlifting than what they and others may think they know. In 1967, Hoffman blamed Tony Garcy’s decline that year on the fact that he was listening to Sandor Gere. In particular, Garcy was doing squats early in the morning, before he went to work. Hoffman contended that the body is not fully awake at that time. Nobody considered Hoffman to be an expert on weightlifting, at least not the technical aspects of it, but he was on target with that statement.

About 40 years ago I read that the best time to train is 4-6 pm and indeed I probably did my best lifting during that time frame. Of course I haven’t always been able to train at that time, as nobody with a 9-5 job can do. But we can refrain from squatting early in the morning unless our time obligations are such that we don’t have any other choice.

About 20 years ago John Coffee showed me the squatting routine that Dragomir had his lifters doing and John remarked “That is a lot of squatting!”. Indeed it was. Too much.

Dragomir’s belief that power cleans (or just cleans) are violent because of all of the motions that the body goes through is “interesting”. I could say more, but I won’t. 🙂

Regarding Starr, I think he can be easily overlooked/underrated because of the way that HE has looked over the years. Some of us were standing around chatting at the AOBS dinner many years ago when Starr’s name came up. Joe Abbenda said “We can’t have everyone working on Wall Street!”. No, and if Starr showed up for a Wall Street interview looking as he does on page 205 of his book (with hair much longer than a woman’s hair), not only would Wall Street not hire him, but he might have trouble getting a job on just about any other street! LOL His life has at times been as unusual as his appearance, but I think he is very knowledgeable regarding weight training.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, John, now you are also disagreeing with me. No problem. 🙂

Of course lifters vary in terms of which body parts go first and which last the longest. You are doing very well at pulling at your “advanced age” (8 months younger than me), but others can still “push”. David Meltzer turns 59 this year. He c&jed 264 at the National Masters a few weeks ago, weighing 229. How much can he press? Almost certainly over 200. And several lifters in their 60s and 70s c&jed over 200, so they still have overhead strength.

Okay, back to deadlifts. If leg strength doesn’t keep up with back strength as a lifter ages (or at any time), then the lifter will likely not be able to maintain proper position during the pull. Then problems can ensue. I got away from deadlifts for a while a few years ago and did good mornings instead, but they can be risky also, even with knees bent. So I finally decided to return to deadlifts but to not do less than 5 reps. That way I am handling a weight that is much less than what I can do for a single and I will also be using less than what I am capable of using for 5 reps. Then my somewhat delicate back should be relatively safe, I hope.

Regarding Hoffman, he of course claimed to be the “world’s worst presser” and he attributed that to his poor pressing leverage. Regardless of what Hoffman was trying to sell, if a person wants an exercise that works as high a percentage of all the muscles as possible, it should be the clean and press.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, Al and Scott, I don’t like to argue — and I rarely do – but you two are provoking me! LOL

Can we agree that Bill Starr, who of course has written for Milo for years and presumably still does, is one of the all-time leading weight training experts? His book, The Strongest Shall Survive: Strength Training for Football, published in 1976, has been very highly acclaimed. On page 79 he has a section entitled “Omit the Deadlift”. In that section he stated “Very few people, and this includes the top competitive weightlifters, keep a good back position on a heavy dead lift.” (I agree with that statement.) Later in that short section he stated “If the danger is higher than the benefits, I discourage the exercise. So it is with the dead lift.”

Although Starr was primarily an Olympic lifter during his competitive days, he also competed in powerlifting and set a national deadlift record of 666 in the 198-lb. class at the 1968 Senior National Powerlifting Championships, so he wasn’t a stranger to the lift.

I can vouch for the danger of which Starr wrote because in 1974 I apparently subluxated my back. (No, I didn’t see a doctor but my stepfather attended medical school for a while.) 🙂

I was doing low pulls with 540 or so for 3 reps (actual weight estimate; most of my heavy plates weigh heavy). This was well below what I had used in that exercise a few months earlier and was not a weight that should have caused any trouble. But I heard and felt a loud crack in my back, followed by intense pain for 20 minutes or so, regardless of the position that I assumed, as neither lying down, sitting down, nor standing up helped at all. I recovered but had to take it easy with training for a week or two.

I was just reading about subluxation degeneration on the Internet tonight, and perhaps this is what has affected my back for the past 15 years, with that 1974 mishap starting the whole thing. I really hadn’t thought of that possibility until tonight!

So I agree with Starr about danger versus benefits.

I must say that you guys have some “interesting” views about a clean. 🙂 A “very violent movement”, Scott? Come on. You meet the bar on a power clean; it doesn’t crash down on you. So there should hardly be any impact at all, Al.

I do agree with Wilbur Miller about doing deadlifts to rehab a back, as you want the muscles to become stronger and help protect the back, but certainly deadlifts in that case shouldn’t be performed with the same high intensity that would be necessary in training for an upcoming powerlifting competition. Moderation should be the key at that time.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Okay, Al, I accept the challenge to debate you on this. 🙂

First, if I could only do one lift for the rest of my life, it would be the power clean and press, not the deadlift, as the latter doesn’t work pressing muscles. (I believe that Bob Hoffman also said that he would do the power clean and press as his one lift.)

Not everyone should do deadlifts, at least not “forever”. Individuals of course vary in general body structure, strength and attachments of tendons and ligaments, etc., so what is a relatively safe exercise for one person can be risky for someone else.

Let me cite Tom Stock as an example. He was Senior National champion in Olympic lifting in the 110+ kilo class in 1978, 1979, and 1980, and was a member of the 1980 Olympic Team, which of course did not compete. I saw him win his titles in 1979 and 1980.

He suffered a career-ending knee injury in international competition, attempting a heavy clean and jerk, which was 225 kilos (495 pounds), if I remember correctly. When his knee was later examined, it was determined that he was highly susceptible to the very serious injury that he suffered because of his knee structure. In other words, he was an accident waiting to happen.

I did a lot of pulling of all types when I was younger (snatch pulls, clean pulls, low pulls, plus snatches and cleans), with my “total tonnage” over a period of decades undoubtedly being a very big number. Then my back started acting up when I was in my early 50s.

I still do deadlifts (both knuckles forward, no straps, inside my power rack), but I just use very light weights (190 for 5 reps the other night), as there is absolutely no way I am going to lift anywhere near what I am capable of doing, as I know that would be very risky. I am just trying to maintain some muscle tone in my lower back, nothing more. (I also do other types of pulls.)

I am not the only person here who has had back problems for many years, but I will let “person X” raise his hand and tell his story if he so desires. 🙂

Proceed with caution on deadlifts, folks. Take it from someone who has lifted weights for over 52 years and has trained very hard for most of that time.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

As many of you know, Frank almost died from cancer when he was in his 20s. Fortunately, he recovered and went on to become one of the USAWA’s brightest stars, both as a competitor and as a meet promoter. Prior to that, he was a very good Olympic lifter and all-around strongman, having won the Strongest Man in New England competition multiple times. What is perhaps not well known is his cancer surgery did affect his performance in certain lifts, as he mentioned to me about 20 years ago. He was cancer-free for 30 years or so and hopefully he will have the same good fortune after this surgery.

[Tom Ryan]

You are right, Big T, Clark is with me here in Atlanta. I picked him up at the airport last night and took him to his hotel. I will leave shortly to pick him up there and take him to the hospital for his surgery today. I will tell him about the turnout for the Deanna Meet.

[Tom Ryan]

[b]Quote from mikemc77 on March 3, 2011, 12:49[/b]
Hi there folks!

Long time lurker, first time poster….I hope all of my old usawa buddies are doing well….

I had a question that pertains to one of the lifts at nationals, the thick bar continental. Actually 2 questions:

1. Can we use a staggered grip, one hand over and one hand under the bar?
2. Can we remove a hand from the bar at any time?

Just a couple of questions. thanks folks, and I’m looking forward to seeing all of you in K-ville!
Mike McBride

Hey, Mike, good to see you here.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Small suggestion: Let’s capitalize “Weaver”. We don’t want George Weaver to start turning over in his grave. 🙂

[Tom Ryan]

Al,

I also enjoyed the story of your grandfather, who was obviously both strong and talented. I’ll add that Harry White was the father of the renowned grip specialist and outstanding deadlifter Bruce White, who passed away several years ago. I assume that his father is also deceased because Bruce would be 76 if he were still alive.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

[b]Quote from dinoman on February 23, 2011, 08:43[/b]
I much appreciate everyone’s response on this topic. Alot of good info was presented. I plan to summarize this in a Daily News Story so it will be saved on our website for future reference.

But – are we in agreement that Henri Soudieres (born 8-5-06) has the oldest birthdate of any past USAWA member? Or should it be Jim Messer?

Do we agree that Jack Lano is the oldest living past/present USAWA member?

Without question, Art is the oldest current USAWA member.

Thanks. Al

Yes, this was indeed interesting, Al. I think we have to say that Henri has the oldest birthdate unless someone comes forth with evidence that Messer was a member. Did Messer compete in any other meet in addition to the one in which he set a record? Perhaps he got inspired by watching everyone else and decided to try his hand at a lift — a spur-of-the-moment thing without him being a member.

I will take your word for the “without question” being without question, Al, but not so fast in anointing Lano.

I did discover that Gene Harmath (12/16/04), John Roche (4/3/98), and Toivo W. Gustafson (2/16/97) are all deceased.

But I found phone numbers for John Schubert and Otto Ziegler. They are both legends … although maybe not in Al’s mind since he listed the Ziegler Clean as #4 on his list of the 10 worst lifts! 🙂

I searched the Cleveland newspaper obituary archives for Schubert but he isn’t listed there. He had a health club in Cleveland for decades. I called a number I found for it but discovered that the number had been disconnected. Anyone want to call his home number (actually I found two) and ask him if he is still alive? 🙂 Ditto for Ottomar H. Ziegler? Scott Schmidt (if he is still at the same address) lives only 10 miles or so from where Schubert lived, so it would be helpful if we could get him to chime in.

I also could not verify that Ed Tomalonis or Bill Decker is deceased.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

[b]Quote from joegarcia on February 21, 2011, 17:00[/b]

Joe,

I’ve entered the date of death below for each person I was able to locate info. I believe Armand Turgeon is still alive but I don’t know about the others for whom I couldn’t find any info. Some would be extremely old if they are still alive.

Tom
———————————————————-
Don’t know how many are still alive but here are some that were members:

Tomalonis, Ed 1/18/1918 [b]5/10/95[/b]
Mason, Roy 1/23/1918 [b]5/2/05[/b]
Decker, Bill 8/1/1919
Eberhardinger, Paul 3/9/1920
Ziegler, Otto 7/19/1921
Skeete, Harrison 10/1/1921 [b]4/5/08[/b]
Schubert, John 11/9/1921
Stark, Robert 4/9/1923 [b]11/28/93[/b]
Monahan, Rex 10/2/1924 [b]1/19/09[/b]
Prechtel, Howard 2/16/1925 [b]11/9/10[/b]
Cox, Bob 4/22/1925 [b]5/8/09[/b]
Ridgeway, Norm 2/27/1927
Turgeon, Armand 3/14/1927

BTW since John Vernacchio trained under Messer, he might know.

[Tom Ryan]

Al,

Jim Messer was born on 10/19/05. So his USAWA membership seems questionable. He was a leading weightlifting official for decades and Bill must have had considerable interaction with him at AAU Weightlifting meetings long before the USAWA was formed, so I would be surprised if Bill didn’t have an address for him. And of course it would have been easy to look up his address — if one had a computer. 🙂

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

[b]Quote from liftingliar on February 20, 2011, 19:32[/b]
I’m not sure, but I think Jim Messer lifted in the USAWA when he was in his late 80’s back in the early 1990’s.

Denny,

I think I read that somewhere once but Jim is not listed as having been a member as of 2/25/94 and he died in June, 1994 at the age of 88, so there is only a small window of time in which he could have become a member. He was involved in the USAWA as an announcer at times, however, and I recall that he split that duty with Dave Mayor at the 1989 World Championships in Plymouth Meeting.

Jim might have lifted as an extra lifter of sorts in some meet but it seems unlikely that he was ever a USAWA member.

Tom

[Tom Ryan]

Yes, 204 is the count, Al. We presumably have the same list but you are overlooking someone. Look at that list again.

Tom

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